Education - Issue No. 16 - Friday, November 23, 2001

2001 Legislative Session: 2nd Session, 37th Parliament
SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION
MINUTES AND HANSARD

Present: Wendy McMahon, MLA (Chair); Elayne Brenzinger, MLA; Brenda Locke, MLA; Sheila Orr, MLA; Richard Lee, MLA; Tom Christensen, MLA; Karn Manhas, MLA; Richard Stewart, MLA; Rob Nijjar, MLA

Unavoidably Absent: Reni Masi, MLA (Deputy Chair); Jenny Kwan, MLA

1. The Chair called the meeting to order at 9:05 a.m.

2. The following witnesses made statements and answered questions:
    1) College of New Caledonia
        Murry Krause
        Daniel McLeod
        Paul Seens
        Cathe Wishart
    2) University of Northern British Columbia
        Dr. Charles Jago
        Alice Downing
    3) School District 57, Youth Care Workers
        Lynne Anderson
        Tammy Livingstone
        Carol deGans
    4) Prince George United Way
        Trevor Williams
    5) School District 57 District Parent Advisory Council
        Bev Hosker
    6) Nechako Teachers Union
        Ken Ponsford
    7) School District 27, Cariboo-Chilcotin
        Rilla Warwick
    8) School District 28, Quesnel
        Louise Scott

3. The Committee recessed from 11:08 a.m. to 11:20 a.m.

4. The following witnesses made statements and answered questions:
    9) Douglas College
        Ted James
    10) School District 91, Nechako Lakes
          Brian Malchow
          Gordon Milne

5. The Committee recessed from 12:13 p.m. to 1:30 p.m.

6. The following witnesses made statements and answered questions:
    11) Betty Abbs
    12) Northern B.C. Construction Association
          Rosalind Thorn
    13) Azizah Sculley
          Paul Ceretti
    14) College of New Caledonia Faculty Association
          Dr. George Davison
    15) Prince George District Teachers Association
          Sandra Davie
    16) Prince George District Teacher-Librarian Association
          Gerrie Green
          Tiiu Noukas
    17) Prince George Modern Languages Local Specialists Association
          Andrew McFayden
    18) British Columbia Alternate Education Association
          Kathi Hughes
    19) Prince George Montessori Education Society
          Beverly Brooks
          Karen Stahl
    20) Career Educators Local Specialists Association, School District 57, Prince George
          Nino Fabbro
    21) Association Locale des Enseignants Francophones et d’Immersion
          Nick Prévost
          Louise Côté-Madill
          Ginette Green
    22) Special Education Association
          Sandy Trolian
    23) School District 73, Kamloops-Thompson
          Denise Harper
    24) Prince George Primary Teachers Association
          Ellie Grogan
          Esther Nelson
    25) Board of School Trustees, School District 57, Prince George
          Bill Christie
          Bev Christensen
          Barb Hall
          Patricia Wick Thibault

7. The Committee adjourned at 5:37 p.m. to the call of the Chair.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE
ON EDUCATION

Clerk:	Anne Stokes
Committee Staff:	Dorothy Jones (Administrative Assistant)

Witnesses:	Betty Abbs Lynne Anderson (Prince George School District Youth Care Workers) Beverly Brooks (Prince George Montessori Education Society) Paul Ceretti Bev Christensen (Vice-Chair, Prince George School District 57) Bill Christie (Chair, Prince George School District 57) Louise Côté-Madill (Association Locale des Enseignants Francophones et d'Immersion) Sandra Davie (Prince George District Teachers Association) Dr. George Davison (President, Faculty Association of the College of New Caledonia) Carol deGans (Prince George School District Youth Care Workers) Alice Downing (Chair, Board of Governors, University of Northern British Columbia) Nino Fabbro (Career Educators Local Specialty Association) Gerrie Green (Prince George District Teacher-Librarian Association) Ginette Green Ellie Grogan (President, Prince George Primary Teachers Association) Barb Hall (Trustee, Prince George School District 57) Denise Harper (Chair, Kamloops-Thompson School District 73) Bev Hosker (Chair, School District 57 District Parent Advisory Council) Kathi Hughes (B.C. Alternate Education Association) Dr. Charles Jago (President, University of Northern British Columbia) Ted James (Dean, Student Development, Douglas College) Murry Krause (Chair, Board of Directors, College of New Caledonia) Tammy Livingstone (Prince George School District Youth Care Workers) Andrew McFayden (Prince George Modern Languages Local Specialists Association) Daniel McLeod (College of New Caledonia) Brian Malchow (Chair, Nechako Lakes School District 91) Gordon Milne (Superintendent and CEO, Nechako Lakes School District 91) Esther Nelson (Prince George Primary Teachers Association) Tiiu Noukas (Prince George District Teacher-Librarian Association) Nick Prévost (Association Locale des Enseignants Francophones et d'Immersion) Ken Ponsford (President, Nechako Teachers Union) Kevin Prouse (School District 57) Louise Scott (Chair, Quesnel School District 28) Azizah Sculley Paul Seens (College of New Caledonia) Karen Stahl (Prince George Montessori Education Society) Rosalind Thorn (President, Northern B.C. Construction Association) Sandy Trolian (Chair, Special Education Association) Rilla Warwick (Chair, Cariboo-Chilcotin School District 27) Patricia Wick Thibault (Trustee, Prince George School District 57) Trevor Williams (Executive Director, Prince George United Way) Catherine Wishart (College of New Caledonia)

W. McMahon (Chair): Good morning. I'd like to welcome you this morning. My name is Wendy McMahon. I'm the MLA for Columbia River–Revelstoke and Chair of the Select Standing Committee on Education. Before having the members introduce themselves, I'll make a few remarks about the committee and the work that it has been asked to do by the Legislative Assembly.

On August 27 the Legislature asked that the Select Standing Committee on Education consider ways to improve access, choice, flexibility and quality in the kindergarten-to-grade-12 public education system and to consider initiatives to strengthen the universities, colleges, institutes and on-line learning agencies that make up B.C.'s post-secondary education system. The committee was also instructed to prepare a report on its observations and recommendations for tabling in the Legislature prior to February 28, 2002.

The members of this committee agree that education is of critical importance to everyone in British Columbia. Education not only contributes to each individual's sense of personal value and well-being, it also provides our communities with the knowledge and skills that will sustain us socially and economically into the future. The question is this: what kind of educational systems and policies will best serve British Columbians and British Columbia in this era of increased globalization, competition and technical innovation?

The committee wants to hear your recommendations — whether you're an educator, a student, a parent, an administrator, an employer or an interested citizen — for improving elementary, secondary and post-secondary education in B.C. to better enable us to meet these challenges. That is why we're here today.

We've had a number of public hearings throughout the province, and some meetings have also been held in Victoria. We have visited Surrey, Dawson Creek, Cranbrook, Kelowna, Victoria, Queen Charlotte City and, yesterday, Houston. We're here today, and we have two more meetings coming up in Port Coquitlam and Vancouver during December. We'll be accepting written submissions until January 4, 2002.

For your information and the information of the presenters, these hearings are being recorded. We have Hansard staff over here to my left, and the transcript of today's meeting will be on the committee's website in a few weeks. Copies of the terms of reference and other information about the legislative committee process are all available at the information table at the back of the room.

I'll now ask the members of the committee and the Committee Clerk to introduce themselves. Two members of our committee aren't here today. Reni Masi, who is Deputy Chair, couldn't make it for medical reasons, and he sends his apologies. Also, Jenny Kwan didn't come. We'll start over here, with Tom Christensen.

K. Manhas: Good morning. It's great to be up north in Prince George. My name is Karn Manhas. I'm the MLA for Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.

E. Brenzinger: Good morning. I'm Elayne Brenzinger, the MLA for Surrey-Whalley.

B. Locke: Good morning. My name is Brenda Locke, and I'm the MLA for Surrey–Green Timbers.

R. Lee: Good morning. My name is Richard Lee. I'm the MLA for Burnaby North.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you, and welcome. Our first presentation is by the College of New Caledonia: Murry Krause and Daniel McLeod.

We're going to have to stick very closely to our time today. Come on up and join us. The presentations are scheduled for every 15 minutes. We do have a flight to catch tonight.

W. McMahon (Chair): Okay. Just to let you know, I'll give you about a two- or three-minute warning when you're getting close to the end of your time. That will give you an idea of whether you want to leave some time for questions from us too. Thanks, and good morning.

M. Krause: Thank you very much. As indicated, I'm Murry Krause, and I'm the chair of the board of directors of the College of New Caledonia. With me is Daniel McLeod. He is a CNC student, and he will also be speaking.

For later on — and hopefully there will be time for questions — if there are technical questions, we have Paul Seens, who is the director of student services here; Penny Fahlman, who is the bursar; and Cathe Wishart, who is the director of community and continuing education — and a couple of other cheerleaders. I think we'll be able to answer all the technical questions that you'll have.

Thank you for providing us with the opportunity to make this presentation on educational priorities in this,

the second-largest college region in B.C. We are pleased that you are here, and we hope to be able to explain to you some of the educational training realities with which we're faced.

CNC is a comprehensive community college with campuses in Prince George, Quesnel, Mackenzie, Vanderhoof and Burns Lake. The college serves about 6,000 students, and that translates into about 3,000 FTEs in the regular programming and 20,000 people in continuing education and contract training. About one-third of our activities are funded through cost recovery initiatives, which means that CNC is responsive to emergent community needs and has an extremely successful history of partnerships and leveraging funding from the provincial and federal governments, as well as other agencies. We've worked hard to ensure that quality education and training are available to all the people in our region, not just those in our city.

The college offers a wide range of university transfer, vocational, career, technical and adult-upgrading programs. These programs are well-subscribed. However, CNC needs to expand its array of programs in order to address the educational and training needs of the region leading to employment. The north is particularly disadvantaged in health services, trades and technology training.

It's the north that will soon face particularly difficult times as the baby boom moves towards retirement. We can expect that nearly half of our tradespeople and government and related workers and nearly three-quarters of our college faculty will retire within the next eight years. As communities, we will need to replace these people to keep our economy moving and our resources serving the province. To keep or attract people, we need to provide educational training here in the north.

The direct and strong correlation between levels of education in the community and good health and prosperity is well documented and understood. It's, unfortunately, clear that the inverse is true. Lower education levels in a community or region lead to less prosperity, greater health concerns and poor economic and social development overall.

In smaller, more remote college regions, it's extremely important that education is available and that people can access that education. This is an opportunity for Daniel to speak about what he's experienced.

D. McLeod: Good morning. My name is Daniel McLeod, and I'm a student at the College of New Caledonia. I am currently enrolled in the electronics technology bridge program. I am pursuing a career in electronics.

I can honestly say that without the support of the existing programs at the college, I would not be pursuing my career today. I quickly learned that having only the skills to work entry-level jobs hindered my ability to provide for my family. At the time, we were on income assistance to help cover basic living costs, and they informed us that we would no longer receive assistance if I attended school. Lacking this assistance, I could not afford to attend school and provide for my family at the same time.

I am speaking here today in the hope that in the future, students who have financial burdens such as mine will be able to take advantage of support programs like the adult basic education student assistance program.

I'd been, again, attending the college when adult basic education courses were being offered at no charge. The ABESAP program provided me with the ability to pay student and administration fees and to purchase school supplies from the college store by way of voucher and even provided me with loaner textbooks through the duration of each course. After completing my upgrading, I enrolled in the electronics technician common core program and successfully completed this prerequisite last spring.

Currently, I am using the student loan system to finish my electronics engineering technology diploma. Then I will be looking for work or possibly furthering my education. I believe that our province should enhance educational programs such as ABESAP to ensure that all British Columbians can have an equal opportunity to pursue higher education. Instead of becoming a technologist, I would be stuck working entry-level jobs, and I wouldn't be able to provide for my family the way I want to. Adult students like me need the support of the government to ensure that they can become productive members of their communities.

CNC has demonstrated over the years how important a community college can be to the economic and social development of communities. In Valemount the community identified CNC's northern outdoor recreation and ecotourism certificate program as the cornerstone of their economic future in tourism. CNC and the Ministry of Advanced Education provided the program, contributing to the major development boom happening in that region.

In Prince George CNC has played a major role in the development of the wood-tech incubator, supported new entrepreneurs through our Business: The Next Generation program and is delivering the graduate nurse refresher program, which put 19 nurses back into health care this summer.

In the Burns Lake region the college has been the catalyst for internationally recognized work in training people who have fetal alcohol syndrome. To serve the community, CNC has also initiated programs to prevent or mitigate the effects of FAS and has total industry and community support.

As you will no doubt hear from others today, we have major concerns in our region. In the Prince George school district, 51 percent of aboriginal students don't complete grade 12. Of those, 49 percent have no grade 11 or grade 12 credits. CNC is involved in a number of innovative projects to stem this tide, and in this district, the dropout rate is decreasing.

In district 91, to the west, the dropout rate for aboriginal students is a staggering 78 percent, and that rate is increasing, not decreasing. The loss of social, health and economic success is horrific. Many of those people eventually come to the college seeking upgrading and further training. While we are working hard with aboriginal partners and the K-to-12 system to improve access and success rates, we need substantially more support from government to ensure that the future is available for our citizens. There is huge potential for aboriginal people to help resolve skills shortages, but we need to support them in education now.

Overall, the college faces a number of challenges if we're to meet the needs of the region we serve. There is a demonstrated need for new and expanded programs in the college region. Additional nursing seats are required in Prince George, and the nursing program should be reinstated in Quesnel. Rural health, residential care attendant, unit clerk and laboratory technician training are also required.

It's no news to you that the trades and technical programs need to be expanded to address the coming skills shortages in these areas. People like Daniel, who are willing to work so hard, need access to these programs. However, due to a lack of adequate funding we are having to eliminate programs and reduce or eliminate services to students. The northern and rural areas of the province are the most severely affected by the skills shortages that are coming. Now is the time to start training to meet these shortages. Many programs can take four to five years to complete. We cannot afford to reduce our program offerings if northern B.C. is going to have the skilled workers it needs now and in the future.

CNC has been creative in partnering with our community members and other public post-secondary providers to ensure opportunities are available in the north. With funding from the northern interior regional health board and extensive support from the regional hospital staff, we have partnered with Malaspina University College to access the curriculum and credentialing for their graduate nurse refresher. For the past 20 years we have been an active member of the New Caledonia Teacher Education Consortium, providing local access for students to teacher education training through Simon Fraser University. In October SFU announced that it will terminate the New Caltec program effective December 2002. This creates a potential shortage of teacher graduates in our area and disadvantages CNC students preparing for the program. We would like to see the program continued as an option or at least an extension of the time lines for cancellation to allow the University of Northern British Columbia and its community partners, such as CNC, to develop alternate access options.

The College of New Caledonia is in the ideal geographic location to become a central training institution specializing in trades, technical and health programs for the north. Through expansion the college would gain the critical mass of students and programs that would decrease the costs currently associated with the small college population. This type of investment would also reap numerous economic and social benefits for communities in the north. The outflow of students from the north to over-subscribed institutions in the urban areas of southern B.C. would be stemmed, and there would be an inflow of students to the north. The UNBC experience has already shown that students from other regions of the province will come to Prince George.

To get where we need to go, there need to be changes. As Minister Shirley Bond has announced, a new funding formula must be devised that recognizes the financial challenges faced by small, multi-campus rural colleges serving diverse populations over large geographic areas. CNC cannot implement the same economies of scale that would be enjoyed by the larger urban colleges.

The College of New Caledonia experienced its first operating deficit in 1985 and has continued to have deficits most years since then. In 1989 CNC made a submission to the ministry warning that it was facing severe financial crises. Four studies by external consultants commissioned by the ministry all identified flaws in the funding formula, and all stated specifically that CNC was underfunded. However, the recommendations made to rectify the situation were not implemented.

The college's financial problems have been exacerbated by the tuition freeze. CNC's fees are frozen at 15.4 percent less than the fees charged by a number of other B.C. colleges. We estimate the college's lost tuition fee revenue to be around $2 million to date, which is more than the college's total cumulative deficit.

The expansion of the college's mandate to become the centre for specialized training in the north makes both educational and economic sense. We urge the government to examine this concept and look forward to working with government to create more choices and better access for students and to build strong, sustainable communities.

K. Manhas: Thank you for your presentation. You mentioned relationships with some of the other colleges. Could you describe how close your relationship is to UNBC and what you share in terms of facilities, students, programming, courses?

M. Krause: I think that as in most smaller communities, everybody is a community partner. We work very closely with the other education institutions in the school district to ensure that we're offering a variety of programs. For specifics, maybe I can have one of the staff respond.

W. McMahon (Chair): Can I get you to identify yourself for Hansard — just your name?

P. Seens: My name is Paul Seens. I'm the director of student services at the college. In terms of the Univer

sity of Northern British Columbia, the college has a baccalaureate nursing program whereby students who are enrolled in UNBC's four-year baccalaureate nursing program do their first two years at the college and then go on to UNBC.

We have very close ties with the business school, and we have very direct ties with the school of social work at UNBC. So those types of formal relationships are available and have been developed. There are others, but those give you some examples of how the college and UNBC cooperate. We share facilities in Quesnel as an example.

K. Manhas: Murry was talking about the lack of economies of scale up in the north. I was wondering how the University of Northern British Columbia and the other northern colleges work together to expand the economies of scale.

P. Seens: The example I gave of Quesnel is a perfect example of that, where the college and the university share facilities, staff, library resources and that sort of thing. Those are becoming more developed as time goes by.

M. Krause: I think one of the things that you'll appreciate as you're travelling around the north is the vast distances between communities. I think that it's really important to acknowledge the very large geographic area and the very small and sparse population. We face a much different challenge than, say, a college which is in downtown Vancouver in terms of just the number of people that we can serve and the access to those services.

B. Locke: Just quickly, on your business incubator program, I wonder if you can tell me if the businesses in the program contribute back through skills training to some of your students and/or financial.

C. Wishart: I'm Cathe Wishart. Could you just repeat that? I heard it's about the wood-tech incubator.

B. Locke: Yeah. I'm just interested if the businesses in your incubator program contribute back through skills training of some of your students and/or financial contributions once they're on their feet and running.

C. Wishart: The wood-tech incubator was just announced this fall after about six years of development with a variety of value-added producers — groups like Forintek — and industry trying to pull all of these components together as to what is going to make economic sense. We started off with the concept of an incubator and then did a lot of studies as to which sector should be considered most for the good of the region. We're just underway, but that is very much a component of it. The city has provided access to a location. The intent is that it will be very much an industry-education partnership.

R. Lee: My question is to Daniel. You think that the ABESAP program was very important for you to go into the system again. Do you think that some kind of counselling in high school in the early days of your career would have been helpful?

D. McLeod: The family issues that I had when I was younger and in high school prevented me from going to high school and finishing, graduating. It wasn't until I began to start a family that I realized I needed to go back to school and get an education. If I had received counselling in high school or even earlier, I don't think it would have helped because of the situation going on with my family at the time.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you both so much. Daniel, best of luck in your studies and your new career. Thank you, Murry.

Our next presentation is from the University of Northern British Columbia, Dr. Charles Jago and Alice Downing.

C. Jago: Good morning. Thank you, Madam Chair. You'll recall that I met this committee on its first day of operations in Victoria, presenting then on behalf of the University Presidents Council. I'm delighted to be back again, this time on more familiar turf, and to talk about a more familiar subject, the University of Northern British Columbia.

We have provided you with a package. It outlines the presentation we will make today. I'm delighted to have Alice Downing with me, the chair of the UNBC board of governors. I told her that all the difficult questions can be directed to her.

I have provided you with a fact sheet on the University of Northern British Columbia — this is somewhat dated but still relevant information; I will refer to some of that — and a copy of the first paragraph of the UNBC statement of mission — which, again, I will refer to in my comments. I will try to be fairly brief, touch on a number of subjects and leave opportunity for questions.

As members will know, UNBC was chartered in 1990 after a campaign throughout northern British Columbia, here in Prince George and communities throughout the north, for a university in the north. The university grew out of the community and had incredibly strong community support from the beginning. As you will see, we work very hard to maintain that connection with communities and our service to communities.

If you look at the fact sheet, you will see that the university has exceeded all of the initial expectations with respect to enrolment growth. We have now been party to two surveys of graduating students. In both of those the satisfaction percentage showing highly satisfied or very satisfied has been much higher than the other universities. Employment rates have been very, very high among our graduates — again, higher than

Research funding has been most gratifying. The university has developed as a major centre of research, much of that research addressing key northern issues. You can see from the map there that our co-op students are active throughout the province, particularly in the north, bringing new skills into many small communities and doing fabulous work, with many of them getting jobs.

It's quite noteworthy that if you simply take our full-time students, between 30 and 40 percent of them come from parts of the province or the country outside of northern B.C., but 70 percent of our graduates are working in northern B.C. It really shows the power of a university to educate people, to bring new people into a region, to bring those skills into the communities and to help the region to grow.

I'd be happy to answer questions that you might have around that fact sheet, but let me move on to the statement of mission. The statement of mission was drafted and the university's strategic plan approved by the board and senate in January 1997, and I have copied you the first paragraph of the mission statement. I know we all get blasé about mission statements, but we took a great deal of time crafting this one.

The key words in the statement are that we're "a university in the north, for the north." We're not trying to be like UBC, UVic or SFU. We're very clear about our mandate and our focus. We're responsive. We work very, very hard to be responsive to communities and to northern needs, not only in Prince George but throughout the north. We are very regional. We have major centres of operation in Terrace and in New Aiyansh and lesser centres in Kitimat, Prince Rupert and Houston and, in the northeast, the major centres and Fort St. John. We also have programs in Dawson Creek, Fort Nelson, places like Chetwynd and, indeed, Tumbler Ridge. We have a major centre of operation in Quesnel and also, in collaboration with the University College of the Cariboo, a major weekend university program in Williams Lake that is focused on meeting aboriginal needs. We have a very clear sense of our regional mandate.

The university is innovative. I'll talk about that a bit more later on. We believe that the only way we can deal with educational issues in northern B.C. is through partnership. We have strong partnerships with all three of the northern colleges. We have partnerships with other colleges — Yukon College, for example — outside of our jurisdiction, the University College of the Cariboo and our work in Williams Lake. At UBC, two new programs, the northern medical program and a program in environmental engineering, are collaborations between the two universities. We will partner to get the job done, and we work very hard at trying to build effective partnering relations.

The mission statement ends with a Carrier motto. We focus very much on first nations. Of all the universities, we have the highest proportion of first nations students. It's around 10 percent, based on a recent provincial study. That compares with less than 1 percent for UBC, for example, or for UVic. SFU had just over 2 percent. There is a very clear focus on bringing aboriginal students to the campus but, more importantly, on doing community-based work. That's true in the northwest, where we offer all of the major languages. We have an affiliated institution in New Aiyansh with the Nisga'a, and our Williams Lake program has over 150 aboriginal students coming in and out of courses. Many of them, having completed certificates, are now working towards the completion of degrees.

I guess the last thing we're very clear about is working to improve the quality of life in the north. We do that in a multiplicity of ways, one of which I will talk about in a few minutes.

The university has now embarked on some major initiatives. The northern medical program is one them, a collaboration between UBC, UNBC and UVic. The pressure for that really came out of the north. It was UNBC's responsiveness to the health crisis in the north that got that initiative moving. I think it shows very clearly our responsiveness to communities. I think it shows very clearly our interest in being innovative, in doing things that are new and different to service the people of British Columbia.

The crisis in nursing is as palpable as the crisis in physician services in the north. Murry referred to our partnership with CNC, our attempt to expand nursing education to Quesnel. We're also in discussion with Northern Lights College and Northwest Community College about reinstating nursing education in those regions, where they are developing desperate shortages of nurses. We are willing, again, to partner, to work and to develop innovative solutions to address these problems in the north.

The bachelor of education is a program we're hoping to bring in next September. Again, with the high level of retirements taking place in school boards throughout the north, it's critical that we be training people in the north to work in the north. That is what we have learned from UNBC. If you educate people here and if you develop a curriculum that is sensitive to this part of a very diverse province, it works, and people educated here will work here. The statistics prove it, and the examples of other jurisdictions prove it, but it only works where institutions are clear about their mandate and the communities they're serving and provide an appropriate kind of education.

The last thing I want to touch on in terms of quality of life is that we are very close to bringing in phase 1 of a research and development park at the university. This is being done strictly on a commercial basis. This will not cost the province anything. It's being done in partnership with two other companies. We hope it will bring new high-tech businesses into Prince George and help us establish the basis for a more diversified economy. That's fundamental to the development of the north.

Similarly, UNBC is part of BCNet and the CANARIE network, the high-speed broadband network. In bringing that networking capacity into Prince

George, we're not bringing it to campus. We're bringing it right downtown. We're developing this in partnership with the city of Prince George to create a telecommunications hub that will serve not only this community but, hopefully, the broader region and will provide advanced data networking capacities to the north. The university can help move those projects forward. It's absolutely vital that we do so in order to promote the well-being of this region.

Again, a distinctive northern university with a focus on its mandate and a clear sense of service to the communities in the north is, I think, critical to the development of this region. Our task is to ensure the continuing development of northern B.C. I would hope that your committee will ensure the continuing vitality of the University of Northern British Columbia.

I would emphasize — again, to go back to some of your questions — that we do work in partnership with CNC and the city and the school district, for example. We have developed an electronic marketplace. We do all of our purchasing together. We have created huge economies of scale in that area. There are other areas where we're willing to work if it's possible to do so. In some cases, there are regulatory or jurisdictional issues that prevent that at this point. But partnering is not a problem — fostering relationships built on the distinctiveness of institutions and what they can bring by being different but working together to provide northern British Columbians with the range of opportunities which are available to people in the south. The true payoff is that the participation rates in the north are now beginning to approximate those in Vancouver.

Through the work of UNBC and the colleges, the disadvantages that people living in the north have had are, at least, being addressed. I would hope that you would address that passionately in your report and ensure that that progress can continue.

A. Downing: My name is Alice Downing, and I chair the board of governors at UNBC.

I'd like to welcome you to the north. Many of us are here because we have a passion for the north. I came here in 1978 expecting to be here for a couple of years. I have put down my roots here. I love northern British Columbia. It's an honour and a privilege to serve as chair of the board of governors at UNBC.

Many of us had a dream 15 years ago about a university in the north for the north. I don't believe that anyone could possibly have, in their wildest expectations, believed that UNBC would be as successful as it has been in the north. Our university partners with industry, with educators, with first nations and with health providers in northern British Columbia. Clearly, the mandate of your committee — for an education system that will sustain the north socially and economically — is absolutely consistent with UNBC's mandate.

We have a university that is accessible. We pay very close attention to all of our regions and the needs of the north. We have a very large geographic area which, of course, presents many, many challenges. We, at the board of governors, are extremely pleased and proud of our administration, our faculty and our staff, who have worked very hard to ensure that the mandate of the University of Northern British Columbia is fulfilled in a manner that's fiscally responsible.

To give you a recent example, the partnership with UBC and the northern medical program was to meet the needs of northern British Columbia. We now have students in the north who will be able to study in the north and capitalize on these partnerships and these good uses of funds to provide rural and remote health care in northern British Columbia.

We very much appreciate you coming to Prince George to hear what we have to say about UNBC. We look forward to partnering with you as we provide an education that will serve the needs of northern British Columbia and, in fact, all of British Columbia.

R. Lee: My question is to Dr. Jago. How big is your graduate studies program? Is there any potential to strengthen that area?

C. Jago: Thank you, Richard. It's fairly sizeable for a small university. About 10 percent of our students are in graduate programs. We have 16 graduate programs compared to about 26 undergraduate programs. A number of those are professional programs — master of social work, master of community health, master of education, for example — that are what I would call first professional programs but are part of that graduate mix. We have PhD programs in health psychology and in natural resource management and the environment. Again, these have gone through the very demanding review process that is required in the province of British Columbia to establish new programs, particularly at the graduate level.

Many of our graduate programs are interdisciplinary by nature. They're quite distinct from the programs you would find at other universities. It was because of our strength, for example, in the environmental sciences as an interdisciplinary field that the UBC faculty of engineering found it easier to develop an environmental engineering program and partnership with us than finding partners within their own institution.

We also have the advantage of location. We have two research forests. We have facilities in and around the campus and in northern B.C. that just lend themselves as kind of outdoor laboratories to support that kind of programming.

Yes, we've got a fair concentration on graduate programs. The real strength is in natural resource management and the environment and in developing strength in northern health issues. We're very, very focused on targeted areas where we think we can best serve our constituency.

T. Christensen: Dr. Jago, you mentioned that there are a number of regulatory and jurisdictional limitations on your ability to work more closely with other institutions up here. I'm wondering if you can just ex-

pand on that a bit and, beyond that, perhaps give us a written submission if there's a good list of them.

C. Jago: The college and institute sector operates quite separately from the university sector. For example, in the area of using broadband networking, they're part of PLNet. We're not part of PLNet. They have agencies that relate to the IT side of their operations. We don't work with those same agencies. I think if there were greater fluidity there, we would have the opportunity to see how we could develop closer working relationships in those fields. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. We're developing this broadband network now. We would certainly hope that the college might participate in that. That might relate to what is possible for the college to do under their relationship with PLNet. It's things like that.

In every area where we can work effectively together, we do work effectively together. Purchasing is the best example of where not just the college and the university but the city and the school district and the regional district have combined their resources and done something that has really saved us all a lot of money and produced real economies of scale. We could do the same in data transmission.

Our next presentation is school district 57 youth care workers. We have Carol deGans, Jennifer Dionne, Lynne Anderson, Tammy Livingstone and Kevin Prouse. Good morning and welcome. Whoever's speaking will need to speak into the tall mikes. That's good.

L. Anderson: My co-workers are here. They represent youth care workers from various programs in this school district. They're going to be here to help answer questions.

W. McMahon (Chair): Can you pull your mike a little closer? Try that. Yes, that's better.

Our presentation is going to be brief, but our message is really important. Primarily, we want our voices to be heard. To begin, we would like to express our gratitude for being able to speak today and voice our thoughts and concerns in addressing improvements in the educational system.

We represent the 24 youth care workers hired by school district 57 to work with youth in a variety of programs from elementary to senior high and from school-based to community-based programs. We are funded through contracts with the Ministry of Children and Family Development and/or through funds generated by the ministry's special education designations.

Youth care workers work with youth that possess the most challenging of behaviours, the saddest of life stories and the most concerning of mental health issues. As youth care workers in the school district, we are the front-line workers in students' lives. We are accessible and available to them on a daily basis, creating opportunities for trusting, supportive relationships to develop.

We currently work in partnership with program teaching staff and community resource personnel. We are instrumental in assisting with the development of strategies to enhance the social and emotional well-being of youth. These strategies include liaison with numerous agencies, including but not limited to the following: mental health practitioners, ministry social workers, probation officers, residential care facilities, the aboriginal community and family members.

Participating in and facilitating integrated case management meetings and individual education plan meetings in conjunction with regular verbal and electronic dialogue accomplish this level of communication. The ministry speaks of improvements to access, choice, flexibility and quality. We believe that we already provide these essential components through the services we have described.

As a professional group, we have developed a philosophy that promotes the overall normative development and positive lifestyle choices for at-risk students. Without the holistic approach being used by youth care workers, this same population of learners has the potential to fall through the cracks of various systems.

It is through the student–youth care worker relationship that youth care workers are able to create the comprehensive scope of needs and issues that need to be addressed. Our goal is to provide a consistent, comprehensive delivery of care that bridges together both mandates set forth by the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Children and Family Development. We believe that our focus on prevention facilitates flexibility, choice, quality and access.

We provide services to at-risk students, which include: bullying programs; kick-the-nic programs; healthy relationship groups; alcohol and drug information sessions; certification programs; work experience opportunities; guest speakers from the community; access to healthy lifestyles; recreation opportunities; transition to post-secondary, university, college and/or trades; community funding resources for housing, school and medical issues; and any other personal need expressed by our students.

We applaud the ministry's desire to improve access, choice, flexibility and quality. However, to achieve improvement in these areas for at-risk youth, you must ensure appropriate funding for the facilitators, the youth care workers. To conclude, we ask you to consider and contemplate the integral role that youth care workers enact in facilitating access, choice, flexibility and equality for at-risk alternate education youth.

As school district youth care workers we are the conduit that links these students with their teachers, families and communities. We continually introduce,

reintroduce, integrate and reintegrate these students to the support services that they require. It is through our services, in collaboration with teachers, families and the community, that at-risk students are able to meet their educational goals. It is through our services that we can meet the goal of education as defined by the ministry, and that says: "The primary goal of the British Columbia school system is to support the intellectual development of students, with the support of families and the community. Enabling students to achieve the goals of human and social development and career development is a responsibility shared by schools, families and the community. These goals apply to all students, including students with special needs."

Thank you for your time. You'll find attached to your copies some testimonials from students. We didn't think we needed to read them out to you.

T. Christensen: I've got relatively basic questions. In order to obtain the services that each of you provide, do kids need to fit into a particular slot that special funding is provided for? Do you deal with the whole student body regardless of whether they fit into a particular special needs identified group?

T. Livingstone: Generally, how that works is that each program has a specific mandate of the type of student they would deal with. We're attached to a program specifically. Our program has 86 students. Jennifer works in a school-based one which would have however many designated to that. What generally happens, although administration says that's who we're designated to, is that youth themselves within the school will come to us via a friend. We're not limited, although we are funded by designated students.

S. Orr: I'm just going to go on that a little bit. We all know that in the infinite wisdom of the previous administration, this money, which should never have moved, moved over to Children and Family Development.

I do know that you guys do tremendous work. You're in the hallways, which is where a lot of kids stay.

Can you explain that funding a little bit more? Some of it comes from Children and Family Development through the social equity package — right? — and then some of it comes out of Education.

C. deGans: September 30 of every year is the only day that the students in the school district have a label. On that label day the different funding categories that come from the students…. Some of the designations that the students have are funded through MCFD. Other ones are funded through the Ministry of Education. Our understanding is that our severe behaviour and our rehab youth share the funding formulas.

T. Livingstone: When you read within the document and when we talk about ICMs, integrated case management, what happens at that time is that teaching staff and ourselves are aware of the issues of the students that have either applied or exist within our programs. For example, a severe behaviour within our program right now, off the top of my head, would be a young female, a known drug user, trying to stay off the streets to support her habit and trying to get her life straightened out and be back in school. So she generates more time. She needs more investment and more support services. Therefore, she's categorized as an SBD. That is our one day to identify them all and submit for funding. Should we miss them, it's not that we quit doing the job; we just don't have the funding to support it.

Thank you all for coming. We really appreciate the presentation. It's the first time we've heard from the youth care workers, so that's great.

W. McMahon (Chair): Our next presentation is from the Prince George United Way. We have Trevor Williams and Merv Fuchs presenting — and maybe only Trevor Williams.

T. Williams: Yes, exactly. Excuse me. With apologies from my board chair. He is the area manager for the Royal Bank, and he's got himself a little busy today.

T. Williams: Thank you very much. I'm pleased to be here. On behalf of the board of directors and, of course, everyone in Prince George, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity.

When I first phoned the Clerk, the Clerk wondered why the United Way wanted to come and talk about education, so it was the perfect entrée for me.

I've presented a paper that I think everyone has this morning. It's in bullet form. I'll go through it. In addition to that, you'll find on the back an attachment which is a proposal for a community school. This is the kind of thing that we do every year, and I thought I'd give you a sample just so you get a sense of what it is.

The Prince George United Way was established in 1969, and it is the only United Way north of Kamloops. We serve basically all of the northern communities from the hub here in Prince George. Of course, our primary commitment to the community is in community-building work, and as such, we believe in helping children achieve their capacity and their potential. We obviously believe in families becoming self-reliant and, of course, in supportive community work. We want to

build and enhance people's capacity to combine their strengths and resources to care.

In so doing, we support 65 agencies in the community, some of which are not going to be discussed this morning — they include the learning disabilities society; we support deaf children — all of whom actually are adjuncts to the education system and provide support and services to that system through a variety of tutorships, a variety of learning opportunities, integration of children into skill sets that allow them to participate in the school system.

In addition to that, we also manage the community care building here in town, which is a residence for 14 agencies. Included in that, as well, are societies like the Montessori society, the autism society and so forth. We have quite an interest in education.

Our particular direct service — and the reason I wanted to appear this morning — deals with our work in the community area. We have two community coordinator workers working in what would basically be described in larger centres as inner-city schools. Here they are community schools — one in the South Fort George area and one in the Connaught area, which is the Ron Brent School.

The reason that we wanted to appear this morning was because, as we have heard…. As you know, many people have been discussing the fact that outside of the core values, we may have some difficulties continuing to sustain support. I wanted to come and be able to explain how learning outside the walls of the institution has an important role to play in the community.

The work we do in the community really is to promote and strengthen schools, families and communities. We do that through residents' involvement. We have a coordinator in each one of the school systems. Their job is to bring together the residents, the students and the families in the community and, of course, to work with the parent advisory councils and the school system itself in order to create an environment in the school that's welcoming and friendly.

We use the local resources in these systems. We count heavily on the local community to become a big part of our system, and we also believe that being in the school is a significant advantage to us rather than being separate from the school. We believe very strongly in the fact that the school is the centre of the community in these two particular communities and, as such, is seen as an opportunity to come, visit and be part of and feel comfortable in the environment.

We also strongly believe in the area of volunteerism. Therefore, with the exception of the coordinator, the rest of the programs generally are initiated, generated and supported through the work of volunteers from the community. An example, if I may — which is kind of one of those ones that always comes back, and you want to hear them over and over again — is: South Fort George was building a community recreation area within the school itself. It's a playground for kids.

A number of the adults in the community came to volunteer even though they didn't have children in the school system. What became very interesting in the last year was that one of the adults was around the school system without a job. He was unable to get employment. But because we have a capacity program in the school, where adults can come in and use the computer system, our coordinator talked him into coming in, sitting down at the computer system, doing his résumé and getting his résumé out into the system. He's now fully employed. Unfortunately, he had to leave the community to get his employment. But it was one of those opportunities where he had come quite voluntarily to help build a playground that he had no particular vested interest in but was able to be repaid through our own skills later on. It's the kind of school system, a way of managing schools, that is important in building a sense of community.

What do our coordinators really focus on? Well, they focus on community education and development. I mean, we're not ignoring education as a big part of what needs to be done, but we're not educators. Our backgrounds are in the areas of social work or applied social sciences. We come because we have skills in these areas. We leave the actual didactic teaching to the classroom teachers. Rather, we concentrate much more on building an environment in the school where children feel that they want to come and learn and where parents feel that they want to be supportive. Parents really are a big part of our learning goals.

One of the things that's really important to recognize in this community is that the two communities that we're talking about in this area — amongst probably three or four others — are fairly marginal communities. We have a population who primarily rent, as opposed to own, homes. In Prince George, for example, about 66 percent of the housing stock here is owner-occupied. In the two areas that we service, the reverse actually occurs. Sixty-six percent is renter-occupied. It's not unusual, if you talk to either one of the coordinators, to find out that every week a new child has come to the school and every week another child has left the school. It's a highly transient type of area in which children have to be integrated fairly quickly into the school system and feel that they're part of it.

The other population that's significant here, as well, is we have a fairly large aboriginal population in these two areas or at least people who declare themselves as aboriginal. Prince George probably has about 7 to 10 percent of the population that are aboriginal occupants. In other words, they stay here; they're residents. But these two communities have an aboriginal population of somewhere between 40 and 50 percent. The transient nature of children and families is a big part of the community that we're working in.

The other thing about the community, as well, is that there are often limited job skills and limited academic achievement. As such, many of the jobs that parents are employed in are often low paying and demand many hours of work, so we're required to run programs before and after school that support the community, again, in keeping children safe.

One of the things that I think we want to talk about in terms of the impact we make is that each week our coordinators will see 125 to 150 children in programs.

When you look at the two schools combined, you probably have 400 students. So it's a significant number of children each week that are coming to the program. What's interesting, though, is that we probably see about 25 or 30 adults coming to the programs as well. We run a variety of programs which enable adults to come — family nights, some learning opportunities like the CAPP program, and so on. These are the kinds of things that I think make a big difference. What it probably means is that about 10 to 15 percent of the community takes advantage of the school and the opportunities to participate.

We run summer programs. This would be part of what the coordinators are responsible for. Each year we've run them in a consistent manner. This year we even added an additional one-month program because of the oversubscription and the need, and it was fully subscribed. For some of the children in the community, these are the only opportunities they have to get life skills and to be part of the community.

This is more anecdotal, because hard data is always difficult to find. We have some numbers which we thought were kind of interesting, and we just wanted to be sure that you had them. We did some month-over comparisons, for example, for things like discipline and office referrals. Usually kids are referred to the office for discipline problems or snowball fights in the schoolyard and things like that. Last year there were 344 incidents in a three-month period. For the same three-month period this year it's down to 216. My guess is that as we continue to work with these kinds of programs, we will continue to see the management of that. Anecdotally, vandalism is down significantly.

I know that in Ron Brent, for example, when they put in the nutrition program, vandalism dropped off almost immediately. It was a fascinating phenomenon. Of course, when children and the families see the resource as a good source of nutrition and a good source of care, they have less interest in being destructive toward it. That's a simple human phenomenon, but it's amazing how it came about.

We've seen improved academic performance. Children are feeling more involved, and parents are feeling more supportive of children. You know, when you've had parents who really have very little experience with the education system — or who, if they've had an experience, it's been an extremely negative one or, in the case of some of our aboriginal families, a very, very frightening one — sending their child to school isn't necessarily something that comes to the top of the mind every day. It's nice to know that many parents do feel that these are safe environments for their children. They encourage their children to go, and they come to school with their children and are really taking advantage of learning opportunities.

Our primary role, really, is to try and build respect for themselves, respect in the community and respect in the school system and education.

What I'd like to do now is take us beyond the walls for just a minute. We are in the business of description, not prescription, so I'm not going to prescribe what I think needs to happen. But I would like you to go away with some thoughts about the value of these kinds of programs as a core asset to the education system so that we do not lose sight of these as important contributors to the well-being of children and their academic success.

We'd really like to see a strong endorsement from this committee for sustaining community school programs and recognizing them as a core contributor to the educational goals for the province. We certainly, I think, could generate sufficient statistics. This morning isn't the time to go into a lot of detail, but there are a lot of statistics, I'm sure, that could be generated in support of showing the advantages of investing in this way and helping the education system be more capable of providing education for children.

We'd also like to see the committee go away talking about building on the demonstrated success that we have seen here — I'm sure you will find this in other regions as well — and, of course, asking and perhaps even encouraging policy-makers to put even more resources into this kind of area of service, investing now rather than investing later on. My background is in the field of social work. I have a master's degree in social work, and I have worked for many years in this field. I have seen the results of what happens when you don't invest in the beginning.

I don't want to equate children to that oil filter, but if you saw, years ago, the old commercial where the guy used to go in and they said, "We'll change your oil every three months," the guy came back and said: "I don't need that." Then he came back later on with his engine all gooed up, and the mechanic always said: "Well, you can pay me now, or you can pay me later." I think we're in that kind of investment. If we don't invest in 10 to 15 percent of our population, we will see the results of that later on.

We'd certainly like to see you sustain and enhance the community school system. We'd like to see you maintain a flexible approach to the funding. That's really critical to us, because we need the capacity to be able to shape and direct these resources. And of course, in light of the committee's mandate to go on with continuing education and lifelong learning, we'd like to see community school support also include support for adult learning. The kinds of things we're seeing with the CAPP program seem to be paying off, where adults are coming to the school and using the same resources as their children and are able to talk about the fact that they used the same computer, that they were in the same room. They're using it, of course, to enhance and better themselves. We'd like to see that as well.

Those are my comments, in brief. I don't want to take a lot of your time this morning.

R. Lee: Do you have programs at the school and probably during weekends in the community schools?

R. Lee: How does cost sharing with the school board work? Also, you mentioned computers in the

T. Williams: The reason we have some concern here is that the community schools in this region — or at least those that are involved with the United Way — have been somewhat built up over time without, I think, a clear path and pattern.

One of our schools receives funding through the community school programs through a transfer from the division of education — of course, the district here. That's done on a budget basis every year. The coordinator prepares a community school budget, and that goes forward. That budget includes salaries, some costs for out-of-pocket expenses and material costs, some costs for counselling programs — because many of our families, of course, need counselling, and there is a counsellor that part of the community school program pays for — and for any other services that might be needed in the school. The computers, as such, generally are provided through the education budget.

It is our understanding, at least from my looking around, that the dollars transferred to the community school are probably through some special transfer between the Ministry of Children and Family Development through to the Ministry of Education and then forwarded from the Ministry of Education into the particular areas, like these districts.

The other budget I have, though, is with the Ron Brent school system. There, the Ministry of Children and Family Development directly contracts with the United Way to put a coordinator into the school system. Again, the other supplies are picked up through the community school budgets.

It would be my best guess and best understanding that all of the community school budgets here are probably in some form of drawdown from the Ministry of Children and Family Development through a special branch of Education, administered from Victoria, back into the district.

R. Lee: Just a short one. Is there any possibility that some of the programs will be cost-recovery, also with support from the United Way?

T. Williams: Well, we support them now, because we don't charge fees and services for any of the costs. The staff are ours; we pay for the staff. We manage their payrolls and all that. We do support services, but we don't charge a fee for that. There's no administrative fee. That's our contribution. That's what we can afford.

In terms of cost recovery within these particular regions, we are dealing with fairly marginalized people who really don't have a lot of discretionary income. Many are on fixed incomes because they're on social support or maybe other forms of income, so the idea of being able to recover much is pretty limited, although we do charge a minimum fee for some of the services. If we're having a hotdog day or something like that, we do that.

Basically, to ask families with probably 30 percent of per-capita income to find a way to fund their own services is really kind of a difficult challenge, given the two areas we're talking about. If the committee had an opportunity to visit them, I think a drive-through would indicate pretty much what the community is struggling with. It's a community that has been seriously hurt by economic issues for many years. Because of its highly transitory nature, I think it would be very difficult. It's a good idea, but it would be difficult.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you for your presentation. We appreciate you taking the time.

Our next presentation is by the district parent advisory council, Bev Hosker. Good morning. Whenever you're ready, Bev.

B. Hosker: I'm the chair of the school district 57 parent advisory council, and as such, I represent 61 parent advisory councils in this district. I'm also the first vice-president of the British Columbia Confederation of Parent Advisory Councils. I'm aware that our president, Reggi Balabanov, and second vice-president, Brenda Turner, have presented to you, as well as our advocacy workers.

I want to concentrate on six issues that have been voiced by PAC leaders on behalf of parents in the school district.

As Reggi has told you, safety is the number one issue for parents in this province. How that translates in this school district forms a couple of issues. One is transportation safety. Some of our PACs have already contacted MLA Pat Bell regarding the walk limits, which I'm sure you've heard of. The Ministry of Education funds a school district based on walk limits of 4.8 kilometres distance from the school for students in grades 5 to 12 and four kilometres from the school for kindergarten to grade 4. Parents in this school district, of course, believe that those walk distances are unreasonable, particularly with our climate and the winter conditions and the early nightfall in the wintertime. In some cases we have children walking where there are no sidewalks or where the shoulders are inadequate for them to walk along the highway safely.

Also, the lack of crossing guards is an issue in this district, both at downtown schools and at those near major highways. From district to district in this province there are real differences in crossing guards. Sometimes in school districts CUPE is involved with doing that sort of work, and sometimes it's taken on by volunteers. In this district the school district has said that they cannot afford to employ crossing guards, but at the same time they've also told parents they can't do it on a volunteer basis using students because of the liability issue. In this school district we have no crossing guards at any of our schools. We believe that the Ministry of Education either needs to fund crossing guards

or, at a minimum, cover liability insurance so that parents and students can do that on a volunteer basis.

Funding is the second-most important issue to parents in this province. Parents in this district are, of course, very concerned, particularly because we are in a situation of declining enrolment, which I'm sure you've heard about from other districts. We're deeply concerned about funding in general, as well as the three-year funding freeze the government has imposed. We feel that the funding formula, in addition to other concerns, needs to reflect that there are differences for students in the north of this province. We need additional funding for heating schools and for keeping schools open in small, distant communities. We have higher transportation costs and larger distances to travel, even for our students to be able to take advantage of cultural events or sporting competitions. It's very difficult.

Third is assistance for inner-city schools, which you heard about from Trevor Williams just before me. Many children start their school years with the disadvantage of poverty. We need funding that takes into consideration not just the number of bodies but specific student needs in any given school population. Parents are concerned about the possibility of hot meal programs being in jeopardy if those funds from the Ministry of Children and Family Development are not going to be there. We know that children who are hungry cannot learn. If these programs are cut or reduced, the fear is that either the children from impoverished families will go hungry and subsequently not do well in school or PACs and parents may be expected to pick up the slack. Unfortunately, the schools where those programs are needed most are sometimes also the schools where parent involvement is minimal for a variety of reasons. Therefore, the PAC or the parents will not be able to carry on with those programs. We need to preserve funding.

Parents recognize that good teachers are one of the top influences on their child's success in school. We realize that the majority of teachers are good teachers. However, occasionally parents become frustrated when someone who is less than competent is teaching their children. We know that in every profession there are employees who need to have help to do a better job. Often it takes an awful lot for parents to bring forward their concerns about a teacher's performance. What makes it even more frustrating is when those parents learn that other parents have taken the same concerns forward, but nothing has seemed to change.

As you've already heard from our BCCPAC advocates, the education system needs to listen to parents and students when they come forward. Their concerns must be taken seriously. There have to be fair processes in place, which include principals being trained to properly investigate those concerns. The goal is to help some teachers become the good teachers that we want all of our children to have.

In addition, we believe that a system of yearly evaluations of staff must take place, similar to employees in other government agencies and private industry occupations. Parents, provincially, believe that secondary students should be given an opportunity, as they are in post-secondary education, to be able to evaluate their courses and their instructors. We understand that in some collective agreements around the province, a teacher can go their whole career without ever being evaluated. We also understand that some of those evaluation processes serve more to protect the ineffective teachers than to instigate change.

Change is needed for the good of our children's education. We believe that the B.C. College of Teachers needs to take a stronger role in the recording of complaints against teachers and must ensure that all teachers annually avail themselves of classroom-relevant professional development.

Fourth, educationally, our students need to be given the options that work best for them, whether that is more spaces in the career technical centres, more apprenticeship programs or greater availability of distance education. The percentage of all students, and particularly northern students, who go directly to university is low, yet our current education educates the majority as if university was their goal. We need to find ways to help students make choices and educate them in a way that fulfils their realistic needs as well as those of society and the business world.

The fifth is one I have a real passion for. Secondary mathematics is really problematic for parents. It seems to be the only subject in secondary school that students really struggle with. It's also the only subject in our schools where teachers routinely have tutors' names and phone numbers on their blackboards or posted in their classrooms. For parents who are able to pay the $20 an hour that they pay here for tutors — or the $60 an hour I've heard that they pay in Victoria — this may mean that their children may have a better chance of success. What about the rest? Students are struggling with the principles of mathematics. That's the math that you and I learned in school, except that it's been pushed down to the lower grades.

There is an alternative, and it's one of the streams that the ministry has put in as being an alternative — applications of mathematics. Children can graduate from high school with this and still go on to post-secondary education. Applications of math was intended to be a more relevant course for the majority of students, because it uses hands-on methodology and also shows applicability to real life. I know my daughter, who just graduated, certainly could have used this course as opposed to trying to struggle through principles of mathematics. Other than not having a calculus component, applications of math provides similar learning outcomes and is just as rigorous a course as principles of math, but it arrives at the outcomes in a different manner. Although this course has been available for a number of years, very few schools offer it. In this school district, none do.

One of the stumbling blocks to having enough students registering in an applications of math class and enabling the school district to economically put those courses on is that the University of British Columbia does not recognize this course. All other universities

and colleges in B.C. accept applications of math 12 as being equivalent to principles of math 11 for entry into non-science or engineering programs. Parents believe that UBC must be required to accept applications of math for entry into degree programs not requiring calculus.

Consideration must also be given to reviewing the outcomes of applications of math 11 as compared to principles of math 11 and giving them equivalency. Otherwise, it may be difficult to convince some students to put in that extra year of math in order to get applications of math 12 to go to university when, from what I understand of the program, the grade 11 is equivalent to principles of math 11, which is all some students need in order to carry on with post-secondary education. Without these changes student and parent interest in the applied program may remain low, and therefore, school districts, as they do now, will not offer it. We will continue to have students struggling with secondary math when there is a viable option available.

Sixth, as BCCPAC has previously told you, parent advisory councils need further clarification in the School Act or regulations about their role as advisers and their autonomy from the school and the district. In the past 12 years, since the current School Act came into effect, some PACs have moved past being seen as fundraisers to being taken seriously in their advisory role. This often comes about only in schools with an enlightened principal. Further backing and clarification in the School Act is needed to assist struggling PACs in their quest for meaningful involvement. I quote from the B.C. Royal Commission on Education, the working group on parents from 1988: "Structures should be established at the provincial, school district and school levels to ensure that parents are genuinely involved in advising educators and policy-makers in matters related to educational programs, services and operations."

In closing, I'd like to say that although teachers, trustees and principals have the best interests of students at heart, they each also have other concerns. For trustees, they need to be concerned about the community and voters; for principals, their staff and their superintendent; and for teachers, their jobs. Parents have no other interest at heart than that of students and their children.

S. Orr: Thank you, Bev. Certainly we know the value of PACs. I know that this government has given the funding back, which I think for some strange reason was taken away by the previous administration.

What I want to touch on is the crossing guard program. I come from a community of 112,000, and our municipality funds it. I don't know if you've ever gone to the city of Prince George and asked if they would fund it. We have a very effective program that is funded by the municipalities. Have you ever asked them?

B. Hosker: My understanding is that the parent advisory councils that are looking for crossing guards have approached the city. In particular, we have a middle school where this is a big issue, and in fact, they work very closely with ICBC in a pilot program which is looking at all of the ways that children travel to school. In that, they work very closely with the city and with the police to try and solve these concerns. I know they have talked to the city.

B. Hosker: On your comment about BCCPAC funding, yes, we are thankful that our funding was restored, but we've been told that it is for this year. We don't have any promises for the future, so we need to continue to do the work that we do.

Our next presentation is by Ken Ponsford from the Nechako Teachers Union. Good morning and welcome.

K. Ponsford: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you, members of the committee, for giving me this opportunity to present a brief. I hope I don't sound like a hectoring old schoolmaster. I can sit in a gym full of 1,000 students and talk with complete confidence, but put me in front of a dozen adults that I don't know, and a certain terror strikes my heart.

This brief responds to the mandate of the Select Standing Committee on Education to inquire into and make recommendations on measures to improve access, choice, flexibility and quality in public education. It's a fundamental tenet of the Nechako Teachers Union that a strong, fully functional, fully funded, fully accessible public education system is the surest foundation of a truly democratic society. Equal and equitable opportunities to acquire the fullest education possible are an individual's surest means of becoming a contributing member of society.

The thrust of our brief will be to delineate what we consider the means for providing such an education system and such equal and equitable opportunities. We reject outright any preconception that the present system fails to provide suitable access, choice, flexibility or quality. We recognize that all of society's institutions can expect to be examined closely and to respond to calls for change.

It's appropriate that an education system, like society's other institutions, should constantly be open to examination and be prepared to change and to meet changing conditions. It's important to recognize, also, that not all change represents improvement. It is in the spirit of responding to perceived needs to enhance the present system rather than to remake it that we offer this brief.

Measures to improve access. There must be equitable access to education for all students. Segregation, whether by race, learning needs, socioeconomic status

or any other separator, does not provide equitable access to education. Integration of all students into regular classes is one way to address questions of equity of access, and it can be a successful way to do so under the right conditions.

Integration is expensive. Its success depends on a variety of factors: modification of the curriculum, adaptation of teaching strategies and learning resources, support for the classroom teacher from specialist teachers, support for the student from special education assistants or teacher's assistants, in-service training for teachers and classes small enough to provide support for the student with special needs. These conditions cannot be put into place at the expense of students who do not have specialized learning needs. These students, too, need adequate teacher attention and suitable learning resources and learning environments.

Although funding for the past number of years has been targeted towards meeting the requirements of integration and the support of special needs learners, that funding has consistently fallen short of what is needed. Many districts, including Nechako Lakes school district 91, of which I'm a part, augmented that targeted special education fund allocated by the Ministry of Education. Clearly, there needs to be increased funding for special education of all sorts in order to improve access.

Specific groups of learners need specific kinds of support. Aboriginal learners have specific needs within the public education system. Learners with medically determined designations such as attention deficit disorders, oppositional disorders, auditory processing disorders or alcohol- and drug-related neurological disorders have special needs in the public education system. These specific needs can only be met with adequate funding. The needs of regular and highly academic learners can also only be met if adequate funding is in place for all the learners.

Measures to improve choice. Measures to provide choice are of particular interest to educators and parents in small communities and remote areas. Many of the alternatives currently being broached, such as magnet schools, voucher schools or charter schools, simply cannot be implemented in areas where there's a limited student population or in areas where there's a declining enrolment.

The answer for such locations is guaranteed minimal staffing beyond that generated by regular student-teacher ratios and class-size limits. In order for students in small communities to have access to choice in an equitable way, the system must staff local schools so that maximum choice can be delivered on site and then consider remotely delivered services.

Remotely delivered services could include pen-and-paper correspondence delivery or electronic delivery, such as on-line or audio or video conferencing or itinerant instructors, or a combination of all of those. Teachers familiar with remotely delivered services understand that certain learners do well under this style of delivery and certain learners do not. Learners who are self-motivated and self-directed and who have strong basic literacy skills and strong home support tend to perform well with remotely delivered courses. Students with weak skills and those with little self-discipline and/or little home support cannot succeed with remotely delivered courses.

There's a strong body of research into at-risk youth and school dropouts that indicates that personal contact with teachers and a belief that there are caring adults available in the school are the strongest incentives for at-risk youth to stay in school. Measures to improve choice must be taken with the goal of providing equitable choice for all learners, not just those whose parents have the means to place them in specialized schools.

Measures to improve flexibility. Since the implementation of the K-to-12 program, amazing measures have been taken to provide for flexibility in the schools. Career prep and work experience have been instituted to help make education relevant for academic and non-academic students alike. Course challenges and credit for out-of-school demonstrated competencies bring real-life experience into the realm of public school education.

Broad choice in courses applicable to graduation requirements provides an opportunity for students to focus on their areas of strength. The greatest measure necessary to guarantee the levels of flexibility already available and to enhance them as necessary is a guarantee by government that funding to ensure that flexibility will be provided.

Measures to improve quality. Measures to improve quality must have their foundation in an agreed-upon definition of quality. Single-instance, high-stakes testing such as provincial exams, standardized testing or B.C.'s own assessment travesty, the foundation skills assessment program, do not measure quality of education.

Quality of education includes the acquisition of skills and understandings, social competencies and problem-solving strategies. These attributes cannot be measured in single-instance testing. They're demonstrated in competent and confident learners who have acquired strategies that serve them in real life as well as in academic performance.

Let it be understood that the quality of public education in British Columbia already ranks among the highest in the world. However, even the best can improve with the right measures, and those measures can only come about after an extensive consultation with all the education partners, professional and lay, practitioners and learners, managers and parents.

There are already more opportunities for parent groups or for partner groups to collaborate on matters of substance than there have ever been in the past in British Columbia, and I've been in the education system in British Columbia since 1966. There's never been as much opportunity for interplay and for collaboration and corroboration as there is now.

PACs and Student Voice, ministry committees and district committees are already in place to address matters of mutual interest. All government has to do to

improve quality is to ensure that funding is adequate to enable these consultations to continue in a meaningful fashion and then ensure that funding is adequate to implement the recommendations arising from those consultations.

In summary, then, the Nechako Teachers Union states categorically that access, choice, flexibility and quality are presently strong attributes of the public education system in British Columbia. Any decision on the part of government to decrease funding to the system will result in its deterioration, whereas adequate funding can result in improvements. Any system the success of which hinges on relationships between and among vast numbers of people, which is practised by highly trained professionals and which requires leading-edge technologies, large physical space and modern, costly equipment will require what appear to be high levels of funding and spending.

Governments must realize that spending on public education is not an expense. It is an investment. It is an investment in nothing less than the future success of our entire society. Respectfully submitted.

W. McMahon (Chair): Our next presentation is school district 27, Cariboo-Chilcotin — Rilla Warwick.

R. Warwick: Good morning. As the chair of the board of school trustees for school district 27, Cariboo-Chilcotin, it is my privilege to make this presentation on behalf of our board. This is a critical time for education in our district and the province, and I appreciate the opportunity to tell you about our district, the needs of our children and the challenges we face. I hope I am able to paint a picture for you of the faces of the children that we work with every day.

The demographics, geography, history and culture of each district are unique, and none are as distinct as the Cariboo-Chilcotin region. Indeed, with a district as large and diverse as ours, these characteristics have an additional uniqueness from community to community and from school to school. The needs of students and the issues of choice, flexibility and access are distinct in each of our communities. The provincial government, the Ministry of Education and the board need to recognize this uniqueness and position themselves to respond to these needs in an appropriate and measured manner.

It is the responsibility of the locally elected school board to allocate resources and develop policies and strategies that translate the provincial mandate for education into effective programs and services for our students. I will argue that flexibility, choice, access to programs and quality — the buzzwords of the new government — mean something quite different to us in the Cariboo-Chilcotin than to anywhere else in the province. It will be your duty to take this message forward to cabinet and caucus and ensure that the differences are understood and recognized. The differences must not only be understood and recognized; they must be taken into consideration in policy development and, most importantly, in the development of a new funding model.

I would like to provide for you an overview of our district. We have a district the same physical size as the province of New Brunswick, with 31 schools in 21 communities spread over this huge area and serving the needs of 7,600 students. By student population we are the second-largest district in the north.

There are significant distances between our communities. In considering the number of students and the number of schools, these distances are significantly larger than any other district. We bus students 1.4 million kilometres a year or 12,000 kilometres a day. Twenty-five percent of our maintenance and support service staff's work time is devoted to driving. There are two main centres: Williams Lake and 100 Mile House. Our five secondary schools all receive small secondary school funding.

First nations students make up over 19 percent of our student population. This percentage will increase over the next decade. We work with students from 13 bands and from three different nations: Carrier, Chilcotin and Shuswap. Each of these nations has a distinct culture and language.

We have a dorm in Williams Lake with 72 students. We also have 40 students in boarding homes, for which we pay boarding assistance. Our student population is rapidly declining — 1,273 students in the past five years, equating to $4.5 million in reduced funding.

At one of our schools we generate our own electricity. At that same school we started the school year with a regular land line phone for the first time. At this school and a number of others there are no rental accommodations for teachers in the community and only the barest necessities in recreation, shopping, social and cultural events.

In the past few years the economy has been devastated by the closing of two large mines near Williams Lake, the expiration of the softwood lumber agreement and the imposition of a countervail duty of 32 percent. These factors impact on the delivery of educational services to students by forcing families to leave to find employment, further reducing our ability to fund programs for students. This problem has been compounded by the related closing of secondary and tertiary support services. The threatened cuts to the civil service will compound this problem even further by devastating the only healthy sector left in our communities.

The district faces serious challenges in declining enrolment and the related reduction in funding. We have had to retire a large debt over the past two years to get our financial house in order. The economy and demographic change are challenges that diminish the board's ability to provide educational programs and opportunities for our students.

All districts are funded by a student population–based formula. While this may be fair for some urban districts, it simply does not meet the needs of the Cariboo-Chilcotin. We have eight schools with fewer than 60 students and another five with fewer than 100. These schools are expensive to operate, and they are expensive to staff. For instance, if we lose three students from each of these rural schools, with the resulting decline in enrolment, we may not be able to reduce the number of teachers. The distances between the schools prevent us from moving students to be more efficient.

A proportionately larger amount of each dollar per pupil goes into funding the infrastructure required to operate these schools than in larger schools. This is money that our district is simply not able to invest in student programs. Simply put, in a school of 60 students the cost per pupil to fund a teacher is five times higher than in a school of 300 students.

I am not talking about just a few schools. Dog Creek Elementary-Secondary, Naghtaneqed Elementary-Secondary, Tatla Lake Elementary-Secondary, Anahim Lake Elementary-Secondary, Alexis Creek Elementary-Secondary, Likely Elementary-Secondary, Horsefly Elementary-Secondary, Bridge Lake Elementary, Big Lake Elementary, Buffalo Creek Elementary, Forest Grove Elementary and Lac La Hache Elementary must all contribute a larger portion of the operating grants to fund the infrastructure costs of operating these schools. This has a debilitating effect on the rest of the district. All of the other schools in the district, where there are more students, have maximum class sizes. Secondary schools are staffed so tight that they are unable to offer the choice and flexibility that students and parents expect.

There are other impacts. Parents new to the community are faced with the possibility that their children will not be able to attend their neighbourhood school. In some cases, children in the same family are in different elementary schools. The schools are that full. In fact, we have students who live across from the school that they should attend, and yet they are bused almost an hour each way to attend a different school. We have allowed our children to become widgets that are supposed to fit into an empty slot, and that is just not appropriate.

We want to provide quality programs that meet the needs of students in a complex, modern world — real students, with real lives and with real-life circumstances. From the point of view of young people, they include children in grade 1 who must ride a school bus for almost an hour each way to get to a school because of the inflexible class-size language. They include students from the Chilcotin area who in grade 8, at the age of 12 or 13, move away from their immediate and extended families to live in our dorm or boarding homes to access secondary programs that we offer in Williams Lake.

In smaller communities we aren't able to offer the range of course choice that young people need. They include students who do not wish to leave home and, as a result of that decision, are unable to take the courses and programs they will need to graduate and attend post-secondary programs; students from the two larger centres who are unable to access the programs they need because the staffing at the secondary level is too restrictive; and some of our first nations students who arrive in kindergarten without a strong base in any language and who need the school system to provide them with all of their reading needs.

The schools with large percentages of first nations students are especially challenging. The intergenerational trauma caused by the residential school experience is overwhelming, both for the first nations communities and the schools that these students are attending. The success of first nations students across the province is a serious concern, no less so in school district 27. Issues of achievement, violence and unhealthy and inappropriate school interaction between students are a daily challenge for our staff.

In the Cariboo unemployment rates and the number of single-parent households and those on income assistance are consistently higher than in the rest of B.C. The average level of education, health concerns and life expectancy all reflect deep-seated community issues for adults and children alike.

We are not the only government agency with concerns. The Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Children and Family Development know the problems and challenges we face all too well. We have no difficulty attracting teachers to our remote schools. As the school populations decline and the total district budget becomes more restricted, staffing becomes tighter and multi-grade classrooms with large numbers of grades become the norm.

At Likely Elementary-Junior Secondary school, we have five grades in one class. The additional challenges of working in this environment with significant numbers of students who are experiencing learning difficulties makes teaching in these schools challenging, especially for the inexperienced teachers.

To attract teachers, we have to provide teacherages and subsidize the rental rate from the operating budget. This amounts to from $50,000 to $75,000 a year — the cost of one teacher. In addition, when we need a teacher with a part-time assignment in a rural school, as we presently do at Naghtaneqed Elementary-Junior Secondary, we are forced to hire the teacher on a full-time basis simply to be able to attract a qualified candidate. Even then, we are not always able to attract a qualified individual. We have eight teachers presently working on a letter of permission.

What do we need from this government to provide the flexibility and choice, the access and quality of programs to which you have made a public commitment? We have a dedicated and well-trained professional staff working with our children and young people, but we need you to listen to our needs and concerns and respond with real support.

What does access to programs mean at Anahim Lake, a full four hours from Williams Lake? What does choice mean at Naghtaneqed, where we can't hire teachers with the expertise needed to offer a core pro-

gram? What does quality of programs mean at Columneetza Secondary, where the school cannot afford the staffing to offer French 12 to a dozen students? What does flexibility mean to students at Tatla Lake, where the capabilities of transferring data and interactive live-video courses are so limited it makes it impossible to pursue these initiatives?

Choice and flexibility are essential if we are to be successful with our students. Equity of access and the quality of our programs are critical to our young people. We contend with circumstances that are sometimes recognized by government but not supported with the required funding.

We are unable to offer any reasonable choice of electives in our rural junior secondaries. Electives are limited to those that we are lucky enough to find within the skill sets of teachers we can attract. Often these are not the courses that children want to take. Our facilities in our rural secondaries are such that many electives cannot be offered to students. Fine arts, band, music and drama — electives that many of our students look forward to — are not available. It has been proven repeatedly that these programs keep students in schools, improve scholastic performance and build well-rounded adults.

Many courses the students require for university and college entrance simply are not available due to the low demand. Should this reduce the choice for our students? We need to be able to respond to our students' needs. At present we do not have the flexibility that we need to do this.

We need flexibility in contracts with our employees that recognizes the needs of our children; flexibility in class-size language; and, most importantly of all, flexibility in the funding formula that recognizes the circumstances in our district. We need a recognition from the Ministry of Education and the government that a funding formula based on population is just not going to work in a district such as ours.

We have 13 schools in remote and rural areas that have enrolments of less than 100 students. The last time there was a review of the formula, our district lost funds. The present review is a major concern for us, especially when we hear the phrase "population-based funding." A population-based funding formula severely limits our board's ability to provide any flexibility to respond to student needs. Choice in courses and programs, compared with the urban areas, is severely limited. Access to a variety of programs for all students is literally impossible within the funding we presently receive. We believe that our children have a right to a quality education, as do all students in this province. We want our fair share of resources and a recognition of our circumstances.

When you return to the Legislature and present your report and recommendations to cabinet and caucus, please remember: choice in the Cariboo-Chilcotin often means no option as to which school to attend and very little in terms of courses and programs. Flexibility is a dream, as funding is merely enough to provide only rigid programs in multigrade class splits. Access means having a desk and chair in a rigid program with few options or sending young children hundreds of kilometres away to attend school without family support. Our children deserve better. Do not forget them.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you very much. As a rural MLA, I certainly appreciate a lot of the things that you've said here. I know it's often difficult in rural B.C. to provide education. Because of our time constraints, we don't have time for questions, but I really appreciate your report.

Our next presenter is Karen Andrews. No? We're ahead of the game. Is Jim Girvin here? No?

Okay. School district 28, Louise Scott. Good morning. This is how we get ahead of ourselves.

W. McMahon (Chair): Just maybe take a minute. Your name's over there. Just go ahead. Thanks.

L. Scott: First off, we want to thank you for the opportunity to meet with you this morning and for rescheduling your meetings here in Prince George so that we could meet with you directly. We really do appreciate that. Our comments today are brief and focus mainly on critical needs and issues facing our district, with as many questions for government as we have solutions.

To begin with, we're proud of the services that our board provides for all students in our district. For many years — and in particular, the last five — all students in our district have benefited from the quality and diversity of programs and services that we have been able to offer. Student achievement is steadily improving. Our graduation rates have increased significantly. Students are better prepared than ever for life after high school. This improved performance is significant because it occurred during a period of declining enrolment and decreased resources. Our superintendent shared this information in detail with the deputy minister last month.

We are not here today, however, to impress you with the quality of our district. Instead, we wish to impress upon you some of the key issues we face and invite you to consider how we might best work together in the future to address these concerns.

Let me start with the issue of targeted funding. Targeted funding ensures that certain programs will stay intact. By eliminating targeted funds, the fear is that the temptation will be to reduce or eliminate programs while putting the funding elsewhere. The reason for that fear is well documented, as districts have faced

funding cuts or declining enrolments and have had to prioritize programs and services, reducing some and eliminating others in order to balance the budget. It should be recognized that trustees and district staff making those decisions, in consultation with stakeholder groups, did so based on what they felt was right for their school communities.

Two areas in which our district feels targeted funding should not be abandoned are aboriginal education and special education. Aboriginal education is the most complex challenge that we face in education today. There are no simple answers. Our district is working on long-term solutions in collaboration with our aboriginal community. This community is diverse in its makeup. We have children from four different bands, two different tribal councils and many different non-status, off-reserve and Métis people attending our schools. Many forces that exist outside our classroom affect aboriginal education. We work closely with the Aboriginal Council to collaboratively identify educational needs, prioritize actions, implement programs and evaluate progress. The targeted funds enable us to share in the responsibility for aboriginal student learning in a meaningful and deliberative way.

With respect to special education, at present we provide service to more students than we are funded for. Traditionally, we have applied dollars from somewhere else in our budget to cover the added costs incurred in meeting the learning requirements of students with special needs. Our district believes that all students can learn and recognizes that some students require different services than others — services that are not always fully funded. Targeted funding in special education ensures that we provide the basic services students need. In our district it is likely that we will continue to provide as much, or more, should the targets be removed.

Another area of concern is the meals program. The Quesnel school district has taken very seriously the issue of providing students in need with proper meals. We have served approximately 250 students annually over the last ten years, at a cost of approximately $120,000 a year, through annual grants from the Ministry for Children and Families. This program should be targeted or somehow preserved. Hungry students do not focus on learning. Achievement is affected negatively when students come to school hungry. If this program is included in targeted funding formulas, those students requiring help would receive it.

We have a concern around music programs as well. We feel this, too, could be targeted and a provincial program. This would allow for all students to have access to a similar program across the province. In our school district we have very reluctantly reduced our music program services over the last few years, especially in the elementary grades. We no longer have an elementary band program, and our music specialists have been significantly reduced.

All of these comments bring us to the issue of funding and autonomy. Local school boards are made up of elected trustees who know their communities and their needs. They are accountable to those they serve. Without the ability to raise taxes, there is really very little autonomy. Being able to plan ahead, prioritize initiatives or just maintain the status quo is difficult with reduced funding and declining enrolments.

The proposed three-year funding sounds good, but is it? What does it mean? Is it a status-quo budget for three straight years? Does it mean that there will be no targeted funding or caps, which would allow for more flexibility to change priorities from one year to the next? Will there be some formula to recognize declining enrolment so that services to students can be maintained throughout the year? Will there be ways to recognize and include costs incurred by boards — such as inflation, WCB fees, auto insurance, fuel and power increases — that come to districts after their budgets are finalized? Will literacy programs, both early and late, be better funded as we look for ways to benefit our students in the long term and improve student learning? Will the new accountability agreements reached between superintendents and the Deputy Minister of Education come with the dollars to help boards reach those goals? Will your government take steps to ensure there is equity and funding among districts before expecting accountability?

I say this because in settling the last provincial contractual agreements, the former government imposed a settlement that penalized districts such as ours. We have maintained non-enrolling teacher positions. However, districts which have reduced these services have since been receiving additional annual grants to provide that service. Our district must continue to maintain those services without that additional funding.

As well, as a northern district, we also incur much higher costs in the transportation and maintenance departments — costs which we believe are not addressed equitably in the present funding formula. When the B.C. Public School Employers Association — BCPSEA, for short — was created, school boards were mandated to belong. On the other hand, the B.C. School Trustees Association — BCSTA — remained voluntary. Some boards found it difficult, if not impossible, to justify paying fees to both associations for annual memberships. This resulted in a few boards, ours included, being left out of the loop but still longing for the Pro-D seminars, the educational information and the networking gained by being a member. In the proposed three-year budget plan, will there be an avenue for boards to take to join or rejoin the BCSTA without penalizing their districts financially?

It should be noted that we do appreciate the new e-board provided by the minister for direct contact between board chairs and her office. This will definitely help in keeping us up-to-date on issues.

On another front, home schooling is causing us some concern. Why do parents resort to teaching their children at home? As partners in education, what can we do to address this issue? We are struggling in our district with the question: how does a small, declining-enrolment district offer the choices that many of these

parents expect with present funding formulas and collective agreements that are restrictive and not enabling?

Along with that issue is another that we think is closely related. That's neighbourhood schools. We value this concept, as many of our communities have been built around the neighbourhood schools. We would like to know if there is a way the ministry can help us keep these schools open to the students who live close by. We're collaboratively working with stakeholders to find solutions to this question. This requires flexibility, autonomy and the means to respond to solutions which are efficient and preserve the community spirit that is focused around our community schools.

I know you've heard a lot about the upcoming teacher shortage. We believe the shortage of specialized teachers is with us now. These teachers are in the technical and applied skills, language and high school math and science areas. We anticipate a broader shortage in the next three to five years. We have been meeting and supporting UNBC here in Prince George in the development of a BEd program and need to see approval of this program by the College of Teachers before Christmas. It will not satisfy all of our needs but will go a long way in addressing the upcoming shortage. The question is: how can we work together with this government to be proactive and address this issue now?

Post-secondary education is also a priority for our board. We're currently involved as a partner in a group working towards the building of a facility in Quesnel. We feel strongly that having a university college campus closer to home will be beneficial to our students and our community in the long term.

In closing, I hope that I've given you some food for thought. As a reminder to us all, our students are our clients. We should be doing all we can as a system to meet their needs. We know that not all of our students will go on to post-secondary education, but they will go on to be gainfully employed in some fashion or another. Our board feels that it's our job to see that our graduates are well-rounded citizens, both personally and academically. With that — by allowing more flexibility in the system, maintaining adequate funding, allowing for true district autonomy with accountability and working together at the school, district and ministry levels — we believe we will meet that goal.

R. Nijjar: You spoke about targeted funding and said that you spend more than you're required to for special needs. Do you do the same for aboriginal education?

L. Scott: At this point aboriginal education actually has a surplus in it. We work closely with the council. When they decide that moneys need to be spent, we go with the flow on that one. But no, we haven't gone over on the targeted there.

R. Stewart: I have a potentially similar concern. You expressed your own feelings that local school boards should be given flexibility with specific types of funding. It's as though we shouldn't trust them to spend it on the areas that are priorities. I have a little bit of trouble with the thought that somehow we in Victoria know better what to do in Quesnel. In both cases that you showed us, you seem to be very responsible as a local school board. I wonder if you know of any incidences where that hasn't happened. I personally believe that the local school board is the place where those decisions have to happen. Yet you have some reservations about that.

L. Scott: Well, our board has talked about that. I think what you're talking about is the meals program, the music program and those kinds of things. Our difficulty is that we've been…. I think I've kind of alluded to that. We're talking about belonging to the BCPSEA. We have no choice. We've had to belong to that, so moneys had to come from somewhere. We eliminated certain things in order to pay those kinds of fees.

The meals program really disturbs us, because we can see that maybe we're not going to have that kind of funding. That means, then, we're going to have to take money from somewhere else in order to see that these kids have a meals program. I think it's very well documented that kids need to have proper nutrition or they're just not going to be learning well. How do we do that? Where we're facing our difficulty is that our district is shrinking. In this last year, just since September, we've seen somewhere in the neighbourhood of 100 kids leave. When that happens, it really does impact us very negatively. We're trying to maintain the status quo, and we just can't.

B. Locke: I'm going to follow up on what Richard said as well, specifically with targeted funding for special needs. You and probably every other district that we've talked to have gone above your rate. So again, I guess we're curious why you would want Victoria to dictate how you maintain that funding in a targeted way as opposed to, say, the school board. You know what the needs are in your community.

L. Scott: I think what we're saying is that if it's eliminated, the fear is that some would take that money and spend it elsewhere. Maybe I didn't make that very clear. What I'm saying is that if you eliminate the target, that leaves the freedom for it to be spent some other way. I'm not criticizing anybody in any way. This is the debate that we have at our table. If you take it away, the fear would be that you would spend it elsewhere. This way, there is a minimum that is required to be spent in those specific areas. We would want that to be kept there so there's the assurance that those kids would have the services they need. I don't know if I've made that very clear.

S. Orr: Louise, on your declining enrolment, do you know if any of those children have gone into home schooling?

L. Scott: A very small number have, I know, but the majority have left for work. Their parents have gone elsewhere for work.

L. Scott: We think it has, but it is really hard to track. We're actually talking about trying to meet with some of the parents who are doing that and finding out exactly why. I know that we have one small rural school, and I know the previous speaker talked about that. We have a small rural school. We talked to the parents there, and they said: "We just can't see our way clear to sending our kids into town. It's just too far away, so we're just going to do it at home." Our dilemma was that we just couldn't keep that school to the level they wanted it at. In the end, we turned it around so that we could keep it as a K-to-4. We changed the configuration somewhat.

That didn't help the kids who are older. These parents are saying: "Well, what happens now? I've got a child in grade 4. What happens next year?" We're saying, at this point, that we're going through a facilities review to see just exactly where we can spend our money in the most efficient way. Hopefully, we would be able to find some way to keep that school open to address their problems. It still wouldn't help the kids who are going into grade 5. They would still have to come into town, so some parents said: "Well, I'll home school."

R. Lee: My understanding is that in the music program there is more targeted funding. Is that true? In the music and band program is there more funding available, especially for those programs?

W. McMahon (Chair): Thanks very much for the presentation. We appreciate it.

The committee can have a five-minute break and get some coffee and get up and stretch. We're recessed for five minutes.

W. McMahon (Chair): Our next presenter is Ted James. Come on up and join us at the table.

Mr. James is here to make a presentation, so any time you're ready, that would be great.

T. James: Thank you and good morning. I work as a dean of developmental education at a college in B.C. It happens to be Douglas College, but it could be any one of the institutions in the college system where there are positions that are similar to mine.

My position is responsible for administering a wide range of college access programs, such as adult upgrading, college preparation, programs of English as a second language, training programs for people on income assistance and programs for adults with disabilities or other barriers to employment. My position also administers a variety of services that support college learners to help them be successful — such services as counselling, advising, financial aid, student employment, disability resource centres, learning assistance centres and first nations centres, among others.

I know firsthand, every day, how important it is for the college system to provide many routes of access for students. I also know how equally important it is to ensure that those students are successful rather than becoming something like road kill on the route to reaching their potential.

Some of my colleagues have encouraged me to speak to you today to help you to understand how important the colleges are in playing this role. Colleges assist ordinary British Columbians to access post-secondary education, but colleges also help them to be successful as students. Without that support, they wouldn't maximize the kind of return the province expects to receive by investing in post-secondary education.

As I'll explain, this role is becoming more and more important for demographic and economic reasons, and further advancements in technology will cause colleges to rely upon this role as part of their competitive advantage. We know that because of a research study, which I helped to produce. The report was called Learner Support and Success, and I'll leave copies of that report with you at the end of my presentation. I'm now going to distribute copies of a summary version — I realize you may not get to read this all — which was produced for the council of chief executive officers. That's what the college presidents committee was called.

This topic is important to you as hon. members of the Legislative Assembly and as custodians of the provincial economy, because one key way in which B.C. can maximize the return on investment in education is to ensure that the consumers of college education have their needs satisfied. This will only come through college learners being successful in their studies. Access has to mean more than an open door. It must lead to a successful path as well.

Ever since the MacDonald report of '62 outlined a bold vision to increase access to the post-secondary system in B.C., the college system has responded well. The demand for post-secondary access continues to outstrip the supply. Each year the college system turns away thousands of students due to insufficient places available. Many students cannot get all the courses they need; many cannot get any courses at all.

This situation is about to get much worse, because the number of potential learners is rising steadily. Over the next ten years the B.C. population of 20-to-29-year-olds is predicted to grow by 16 percent — twice the national average. Meanwhile, the number of older students in college has also risen faster in B.C. than elsewhere in Canada.

Almost 70 percent of all grade 12 graduates now make direct entry into post-secondary education from

high school compared to 41 percent a decade ago. This percentage is expected to rise as changes in the labour market drive more and more high school students to obtain some kind of post-secondary education as a prerequisite to obtaining a decent job.

In the nineties employment opportunities for those with less than high school education declined sharply by 40 percent. A region like this knows that only too well. The share of employment openings that will require some kind of post-secondary completion is expected to rise to more than 70 percent by the year 2008.

Some 40 percent of Canadians cannot read or write well enough to cope with the demands of the workplace. The Canadian Business Task Force on Literacy estimated that illiteracy costs Canadian businesses $4 billion each year. The challenge is not just the numbers but also an ever-increasing range of learner needs.

Colleges today serve a far greater diversity of students from different backgrounds than ever before. Immigration to B.C., for example, has swelled 2.5 times in size since 1971. By far the large majority of those immigrants, of course, have settled in the lower mainland, where they now account for over a third of the population. But provincewide, visible minorities are projected to grow by 25 percent over the next 25 years. Continued immigration will require colleges to serve a larger ESL population than currently.

The needs of another minority group, people with first nations ancestry, are increasingly being recognized, but first nations youth in their twenties were only half as likely as the rest of the population to possess any post-secondary credential and only one-fifth as likely to graduate with a bachelor's degree. Success with post-secondary education still eludes many of our first nations people.

Colleges can expect to serve more students with disabilities in future. The number of people with disabilities is increasing. The K-to-12 system is producing more graduates with disabilities. Students are increasingly integrated into regular classrooms, and more students with disabilities expect to go on to post-secondary education than previously.

At the same time, the range and types of disabilities served in colleges is increasing through better screening and improved accommodations provided to the students. The complexity of disabilities is also becoming an issue. For some learners, such as those with multiple barriers and needs, a case management system is required, pulling together internal and external care agencies to provide different components of support.

In other situations, particularly in rural areas, there may not be anyone to liaise with. For instance, the move to deinstitutionalize people with mental health disabilities required that colleges were inevitably experiencing a rise in the number of mental health disabilities prevalent among their students. Counsellors and disability services providers are struggling some times to know how to address these needs, especially if other mental health support services are not available in the community or are too stretched.

More students are requiring financial assistance to attend college programs as well. In the nineties the number of students receiving student loans doubled. A decade ago, a student finishing four years of post-secondary education had an average debt load of $13,000. That average debt load has now doubled to over $25,000. As the debt loads rise, some students are having much more difficulty paying back those loans, and we have to help them with that in terms of financial consulting and assistance.

Furthermore, recent initiatives of welfare and unemployment reform continue to have significant ongoing impact on the college system as institutions increasingly serve a greater cross-section of society and attract more students with very special and non-traditional needs. Many of these students have previous educational levels that are lower than the provincial average, especially the young people.

Nearly three-quarters of the 19-to-24-year-olds on B.C. Benefits, for example, have no post-secondary education. As the number of job openings declines for people without a college credential, more people facing labour force adjustment difficulties are likely to enrol in some form of further education or upgrade. They're likely to head toward the colleges.

The report Learner Support and Success emphasizes that colleges will need to revitalize many aspects of how they deliver educational support services in response to these changing expectations and the increased demand. As the demands widen, the future success of colleges will rely increasingly upon their ability to provide effective learning support services. Indeed, this may become one of the most distinguishing characteristics of the post-secondary system of education within our province. Colleges are likely to become what we might call learning support centres, whose principal function could be to inventory various learning options and experiences along with guiding and supporting access to them.

In the process Learner Support and Success indicates that colleges will need to re-examine many aspects of how they presently plan and deliver those support services. More attention will need to be focused on learner success and creating the conditions that facilitate it rather than assuming that successful educational outcomes for learners can be sustained without deliberate effort. Otherwise, colleges are likely to be forced by default to choose between competing policy imperatives. The challenge will become simply a dilemma: should colleges continue to open their doors ever wider to maximize the access for learners, or should they focus their limited energies and perhaps diminished resources on maintaining quality standards and success rates?

The report contains a number of specific recommendations aimed at providing institutions, and the college system more generally, with strategies designed to facilitate high success rates for a growing and more diverse student population. Many of the recommendations that are contained in the report will require colleges to develop local responses in order to revitalize the provision of educational support services on their campuses. There is no one-size-fits-all solution,

At the system-wide level, though, the report encourages provincial policy-makers, such as yourselves, to be mindful of several recommendations. Of these, senior administrators in the province have identified three key ones. They're listed at the very end of the document you have.

We should explore ways in which services to learners can be enhanced by greater system collaboration among institutions. This will help us to reduce costs and consolidate the expertise and information that exists.

We should also revise the current funding formulas to reflect the multiple variables — not just some of the single ones, such as the number of students enrolled — that are associated with the cost of delivering access programs and support services. They need to take into consideration things like the actual number of students — what we call the head counts — rather than the FTEs; to focus on some of the semi-fixed delivery costs of providing services; and to look at some of the demand-driven services and the actual use of those services by students, particularly things like sign language interpreting, which is a mandated, human rights issue.

We should revise the special purpose funding envelopes that currently exist so students with special needs or multiple barriers actually do receive adequate assistance.

As the report indicates, the success of learners in the B.C. college system, perhaps even the success of that system itself, will increasingly rely upon institutions being able to provide a range of quality and flexible support services to learners in future. Their future, and the province's, will depend upon this.

Thank you for listening to this presentation. I wish you well in your important work.

R. Lee: You mentioned the importance of the programs and also, in their programs, their two different, competing objectives. In your view which one is more important?

T. James: I think we need to do both. That's part of what I've been trying to emphasize. If you provide access, it needs to be something where you can be successful. I'll give you an example. We have many students in colleges who are part of what are called university transfer programs. Now, if you're taking a series of courses with the intention of being able to transfer to a university, and if the public is paying a sizable portion of the cost of the education, it's very important how many people actually move on and gain access into a university. Otherwise, it's a university transfer program to nowhere.

It's important for us to be able to ensure that there's a good match between what students are doing, how we're providing those services and what destinations and goals are ultimately attainable.

Thank you so much for coming today and making your presentation. We appreciate it.

Our next presentation is by Brian Malchow, school district 91. Good morning and welcome.

B. Malchow: Good morning. As you know, my name is Brian Malchow. I'm the chair of the board of school trustees for school district 91, Nechako Lakes. We were hoping to make a PowerPoint presentation, but because of the way the meetings have been set up, we're unable to do that, but we've got it laid out here for you. I'll just continue right into this.

Our presentation is surrounding the key choices for learning. We want to talk in particular about Nechako Lakes school district. School district 91, Nechako Lakes, covers an area of over 40,000 square kilometres in north central B.C. The district offers a wide range of educational programs. We have an enrolment of over 6,000 students. Twenty percent of these students rely on electronic delivery for their education needs. Today we would like to focus on one in particular — our electronic delivery program known as E-Bus.

E-Bus was the first program to deliver curriculum to students in electronic format. Contrary to what you've heard through the news of other announcements made throughout Canada, we were actually the first. E-Bus should have a particular resonance for those promoting choice in education. E-Bus is publicly accountable, achievement-oriented and the response of an autonomous and innovative school board to the choices and needs of learners and parents.

Despite strong and continuing demand for access to our program, the Ministry of Education's enrolment cap forces us to turn away hundreds of parents and students each year. While many students are willing to remain on our waiting list, others express frustration and turn away in disappointment. Enrolment in distance learning programs has been limited by the government. People are attempting to move to an electronic program, but the cap won't allow them to enrol.

As you can see, in the E-Bus program we provide 730 students throughout B.C. with an electronically delivered educational program. More than 400 of these students are in the lower mainland.

E-Bus helps preserve the viability of small secondary schools. Smaller schools face limitations in the number of courses they can offer. This in turn limits the number of paths to graduation. By using E-Bus courses, teachers are able to supplement timetable and course offerings. This means more students can take the courses they want and that they need to graduate.

The anytime, anywhere aspect of E-Bus delivery can also make the difference in allowing students to pursue work experience and other work-and-learn options. Once education can take place outside the 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. envelope, a lot of new horizons open up.

Imagine a world of on-line learning where students can learn at their own pace, using materials, activities and outcomes direct from the B.C. curriculum. This place exists at E-Bus. E-Bus teachers help non-specialists in traditional schools deliver a better learning experience to kids. They make the best software, assessment, evaluation and learning tools available to students in schools, at work and at home.

Evaluations of parents and learners have been included in your background package. You'll find them worthwhile reading.

It is time to give parents and students a choice in their education. They need to play a vital role in deciding what form their education should take. We need to trust consumers to make wise choices. Education can be responsive to the needs of the market if we are willing to remove the unnecessary constraints. Once unfettered, electronic delivery programs can reach the size or critical mass needed to create and promote a sound world-class curriculum. Growth is necessary for both excellence and survival. Growth can help us maintain a first-class product.

The minister, in speaking to the BCSTA provincial council just a couple of weekends ago, stated something to the effect of: "We need to make the education system fit the learner, not the learner fit the system." The E-Bus electronic delivery programs do that.

New and better mixtures of traditional electronic education can save the province a great deal of money by reducing the demand for seats in bricks-and-mortar schools. If we give learners more options, we also increase the likelihood that students will graduate and succeed and excel in their lifelong endeavours.

E-Bus has undergone three formal and several informal evaluations by the ministry. We continue to pass with flying colours. The problem remains that the government has not been able to decide on a standard for evaluating electronic delivery programs. We believe E-Bus should be evaluated using the same criteria we apply to learners, schools and school districts, namely: have they achieved the outcomes we have set for them, and are they accountable for the results they have achieved?

The development of excellent courses takes talent, time and money. If the leaders in electronic delivery work together, we could make a better product at a lower cost. In addition, we could target our efforts and avoid duplicating each and every element of the curriculum. Some standards need to be set and enforced to preserve program quality. Given prior inaction by the government, school districts at the forefront of electronic delivery appear to be the best-equipped to take on this regulatory role.

Encourage behaviour you are seeking. Begin with the end in mind. If you truly want to promote choice, don't hedge those who would offer it with constraints and roadblocks.

We believe the B.C. curriculum is world-class. Let it become one of B.C.'s chief exports. We can make friends and contacts throughout the world if we are willing to share what has been developed right in our own backyard. If you let us, we can deliver choice in education, quality standards, access and flexibility, leadership and economies of scale to the rest of the province and the world. The bus has been travelling throughout B.C., leaving the Ministry of Education and hundreds of students waiting. The bus wants to travel, so don't miss the bus.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you, Brian. Our first question is from Tom Christensen.

T. Christensen: Thank you very much, Brian. This is really interesting. Can you tell us a bit about what's been done to promote the E-Bus program in rural districts? It seems that it has some particular application there in terms of optimum choices for students. Also, what are the barriers to expanding it in more rural areas?

B. Malchow: The main part of the question is the barrier that doesn't allow us to expand into any areas, and that is the enrolment cap on the program. Currently, it's capped at 740 students, and it has been capped for a number of years, leaving lots of willing parents and students and families in rural and non-rural areas throughout B.C. on the waiting list. As a result, they're not only not waiting, but they're enrolling in programs that aren't accredited programs, that aren't B.C. curriculum programs and that don't have the accountability guidelines in place that we've put in with our program.

The B.C. home schooling network is quite a broad network and is well organized throughout B.C. That network — just themselves — has done our advertising for us. Again, we're restricted by the enrolment. If we'd been allowed to grow at a controlled rate a number of years ago — the E-Bus program is in its eighth year — we would probably be in the neighbourhood of 2,000 or 3,000 students today.

When you look up to the Yukon and to other jurisdictions in other provinces and territories where the government has supported these types of programs, they're doing what we originally developed in their own jurisdictions. They've addressed a lot of concerns and have great enrolments and great successes with those programs.

R. Lee: I have a few questions. How many courses have been developed so far? How fast can the whole basic curriculum, from K-to-12, be developed? What kind of resources are required to develop those programs?

B. Malchow: The first question was: how many courses have we developed? I'm not sure if the full curriculum for it has been developed for all grade 12 courses. The full curriculum courses are developed right up to grade 12.

Through an acquaintance of my son's, I've made contact with an individual teacher in the lower mainland who's working on his own, developing the

new math curriculum for grade 12. Obviously, he's chosen to do this on his own because he doesn't have the support of the school district that he works in. There is not a broad range of support throughout the province. If we were able to coordinate the efforts on doing stuff like that, then with a group of people developing a single course or a program, you would have a time-saving element there as well as a better product in the end.

R. Stewart: You said something that puzzled me. The majority of the students in the system now are from what we would characterize as areas of the province that already have the best educational resources available to them — the lower mainland and Victoria. I wonder how that ended up happening.

B. Malchow: In response to that I would say that the E-Bus program provides one of the top-of-the-line educational resources to them. We have an estimated 400 people in the lower mainland and the Island area, and I guess it's a result of the quality that the program offers. Again, it comes from the network that's been created. Through the home-schooling people and their association, the word gets out that this is a very interactive program and that the results are good. The program is of excellent quality, and it answers the needs of a lot parents. They have direct, on-line access to a qualified, certified teacher throughout the whole day and are still able to go about their own lives and adjust the program to fit their needs. The success of those students has been really positive. I guess that would be why there are more people in the lower mainland.

Back to the question of rural districts, one of the first stumbling blocks that we had in developing any of our electronic programs was access. Rural areas do not have good access to the Internet or to on-line delivery systems. That's one of the stumbling blocks that there has been up in our area. When you look at the top two-thirds of the province, from the coast right through to Williams Lake and north, even though it's two-thirds of the province, the number of students is only about 10 percent of the students. That would also add to the difference in the numbers, I would speculate.

T. Christensen: Is the E-Bus program funded by the Nechako Lakes school district, or is it funded directly by the ministry?

B. Malchow: The E-Bus program is funded by the Ministry of Education at a lower rate per student. It's about half the funding rate of students in our regular system. I think we get funding of about $3,500 per student for the E-Bus program. Whereas, for a regular student in our system, in the Nechako Lakes school district, it's about $7,200, I think.

W. McMahon (Chair): Okay. Rob can go ahead, and then we'll go back to you — just variety.

R. Nijjar: I guess we understand that there's a cap. It's interesting to note that around 50 percent of participants right now are from the lower mainland. In your educated opinion, how many students in B.C. do you think would enrol if the cap were lifted?

B. Malchow: Well, first off, if the cap were lifted, I wouldn't want to see another thousand students just like that. I think it needs to be a controlled number that you would allow to enrol in programs like this in order to ensure that the quality of the program isn't jeopardized. To guess how many students would want to enrol, I'm not sure. At one time we had 1,500 students on our waiting list. That goes down and back up, depending on whether people find other programs that they eventually get into. The exact numbers….

G. Milne: I would estimate that no more than 2,000 to 3,000 students would be interested.

T. Christensen: I'm just trying to get my head around how the whole thing was developed. The teacher support for the students that are using E-Bus: are all those teachers in the Nechako Lakes district, or are they all over the province?

G. Milne: We have about 20 teachers employed in the E-Bus school. We've set it up as a school in its own right. There's about 20 full-time-equivalent teachers. They all live and work within our school district. They work from two sites. We do that not out of necessity,

because they can work anywhere around the world, essentially, to service their students' needs. But we really have them working together collaboratively to build this program — and have over the years.

B. Malchow: We had one teacher for a period of about a year that lived in the Victoria area. He was originally from our system, and then he moved to Victoria. It worked well.

T. Christensen: Essentially, the district developed the program and is facilitating its continuation and would like it go grow.

R. Lee: Is 50 percent funding of those E-Bus students sufficient? Is the cost 25 percent of the full funding or 50 percent of the full funding? Is it funded at 50 percent per student?

G. Milne: Our funding per electronic student in British Columbia in approved programs is $3,500 per FTE student. It's essentially a rate that was established because no one else knew what it would cost to educate these students. It's totally arbitrary. At this point in time we are managing to run the program at a rate of $3,500 per full-time-equivalent student. We subsidize this program in a number of ways in our school district — from an administrative perspective, from a resource perspective, etc. — but it adds value to other programs in our school district, so we feel we have a pretty good balanced budget in the program.

R. Lee: In the stage of development, you need more resources to do that — right? Once the whole program is developed, then the student costs should be lower as a matter of economy of scale.

G. Milne: Absolutely correct. It would have been a much better program if we would have had full student funding initially so we could develop the curriculum, but we've just used the money we've had to develop programs. We take from a variety of software programs that are available in British Columbia. We use Plato, Pathfinder and CCC Success Maker, and we use teacher-developed coursework. We're part of the Cool School network, and we've worked with Open School, etc. That's the nature of electronic delivery: you can pull the best pieces of curriculum from a variety of programs to build courses. When you ask our board chair the question: "What do you deliver?" We deliver to students from kindergarten-to-grade-12, but it's not from software that we've had total control of developing. We've picked the best from a variety of sources.

R. Stewart: I'm curious. Why on earth is there a cap on it? It sounds to me like this is a great solution for many people. It's not the be-all and end-all, but it provides some real options, particularly in areas of the province where access is limited otherwise. I'm trying to figure out why there is a cap. If we did choose to remove the cap, could we not simply allow this program to set its own cap based on its experience, its knowledge and its planning?

B. Malchow: I'll let Gordon in here in just a second. A lot of the cap has been, I guess, just the politics of it. I can speak to it from the political point of view, and Gordon can speak to it from the grass-roots education part of it.

I think the past government was very reluctant to move into technology with curriculum. What I saw was that they wanted to do it through their open learning program, and they wanted ownership of it. As you may be aware, we had discussions with multinational companies in mainland China, and the ministry pulled the plug on that. I'm not sure why they pulled the plug. Maybe because they wanted to do it. Currently the B.C. government is in partnership with the federal government on a educational program in mainland China called the Maple Leaf School. It has not been very successful. Those are some of the political things of it. I don't know if they had wanted to take it on as their own project or not. I would like to see us make this program grow, and it sounds like you're encouraged by what you're hearing.

It does answer a lot of things. For one, you're not building a lot of schools. The number of kids we have in the program right now is a pretty good-sized school. For 740 students it cost about $12 million to build that school. Now, you're not heating and maintaining the building as well. And it works. People can say, "Well, all those students wouldn't be in one school," but if you get 2,000, 3,000 or 4,000 students in a program and this program works for those people, that's a $40 million building — or whatever — that you wouldn't have to service a lot of students with. That can address some of the issues throughout B.C. It's not going to address all of them in all areas, but it certainly provides an opportunity for some people.

G. Milne: It's really refreshing to hear people asking questions about a program that was started nine years ago and then was effectively just stopped by a government that was in power. I don't want to get into the political end of it.

The reality of these types of programs is this. Not everyone wants to have their child enrolled in an electronic program, but some parents are looking for choices in how their children are educated, how they want to be involved with their children's education and how they want to add value to their children's education.

We see and have always viewed electronic delivery as an opportunity to add value to kids' educational programs, whether they're in school and getting the majority of their program on a face-to-face basis…. We have schools in small communities, and you can't go out and hire competent, qualified senior secondary physics teachers. They're just not available. We've always been looking for opportunities to provide choice and provide opportunities in these small schools at a

distance by working with the teachers that are on staff in those schools. It was a natural sort of business opportunity, because once you develop it for your school district, you can take it wherever you need to go. That's the beauty of electronic communication and the Internet.

B. Malchow: Just adding to that, one of the concerns that has come up for us, not being able to go outside the province of B.C., is when a student has gone through the program for four or five years and the family moves to another jurisdiction and they want to continue the program, we're not able to provide that service anymore. Again, it really ties our hands for continuing a program that has been successful for a family and for some students if, say, they moved to Alberta or Saskatchewan or Tahiti or wherever.

K. Manhas: You mentioned Open School. I personally don't know a lot about how Open School works. I was wondering if you could maybe explain to us the differences between Open School and the E-Bus program.

G. Milne: Sure. Open School is not a school district, so it doesn't have the legislative authority that a school district has to graduate students with the B.C. Dogwood. Open School has chiefly been in the business of developing curriculum that can be delivered at a distance. It's in transition right now. I'm not quite sure where Open School sits. I know they're just looking for new management for it — that type of thing.

E-Bus is part of our school district. We register students in school district 91 via 1701 data collection. We operate E-Bus within a trust, so it is very much publicly accountable. Anyone, at any time, can go in and see exactly what the revenue is and what the expenses are in that program.

B. Malchow: In Open School, also, some of the courses have been through correspondence courses. They haven't had the on-line assistance with a certified teacher as well.

K. Manhas: In your opinion, could some of the resources that have been put into Open School and the E-Bus program be combined?

G. Milne: Yeah, we are doing that. At this time, a number of school districts in British Columbia have formed two consortiums to kind of pool the course work. Open School's working with a group called Cool School, working with the DELS — distance electronic learning schools. I think there are about 14 that are approved in British Columbia.

People are beginning to work together very well, but there's not a formal group that's been established. The electronic delivery of curriculum in this province has been something that we've all kind of tried to sneak in the back door. We've all tried to keep our heads down because of the politics that surround electronic delivery. We're living, right now, with job action in this province. There are grave concerns from the BCTF — specific to unfettered growth, in these programs. Some of those concerns, in my mind, are legitimate concerns. What about issues like class size? What about issues like accountability, testing, assessment, those types of things?

The Ministry of Education is looking into this right now. Our hope is that very soon some decisions will be made to encourage collaboration and pooling of curriculum so that we can improve it and market it. It's very marketable throughout the world.

E. Brenzinger: I commend you for getting on board in the early nineties. What I'd like to know is: where is the website, and where we can get more information?

B. Malchow: Yes, actually, we thought about that too. On the last page of your handout it gives a Web address for the PowerPoint presentation, which we had hoped to show you. From there, you can get back to our home page. There is also a Web address for the E-Bus home page, which you can go in and look at.

S. Orr: I just wish Ms. Kwan was here, because maybe she could explain why they haven't been moving with this for the last nine years. It sounds extremely good. Certainly we've been going around the province, and certain things jump out. This is very good.

What I really want to know is how far up the chain you've gone. I just heard you say that you're talking to the Ministry of Education. Has this gone to the deputy minister? How far up the chain have you gone with this?

G. Milne: The deputy's very familiar with E-Bus, as are other senior bureaucrats in the ministry.

G. Milne: When we discussed our accountability contract here three weeks ago, E-Bus was part of that discussion.

B. Malchow: Just adding to that, at one time we used to go to Alberta and teach them what we were doing. Now, just recently, some of our E-Bus staff came back from Alberta to learn what they've been doing. We used to be the leaders in North America. We've

now actually fallen behind a little bit. We would like that opportunity to move ahead again as leaders in North America with these programs.

There's one point I haven't made, and I thought I'd take this opportunity to make it as well. You can do the math. We have about 20 teachers and over 700 students. There are savings on the economies of scale and the class size. We've managed to work with our local union regarding that. We've had a good working relationship, but there's also the bigger picture that may occur as well. There needs to be government support on that when you're dealing with some of the issues that come out of the teacher negotiations. We're not sure exactly where that's going to go either.

B. Locke: There's just one thing I can't get my head around. Is a child — or whoever is registering — registered in both school districts? Would they be registered in Victoria even if they're home schooled — paid and registered here?

G. Milne: No. We used to do that when we first started. There are School Act regulations that are complicated. The Ministry of Education is looking at policy changes right now that are specific to your question.

At this point in time students that want to enrol in a program from another school district have a right. Home schoolers can enrol with any school district they choose anywhere in British Columbia. It has evolved, over the past nine years, that we have the legal right to register students from anywhere in the province within our school district. They don't have to register with their own home school district.

However, we've been able to develop a number of relationships with those school districts so students can go into the library in their neighbourhood school or take a lab course at their high school. That's the kind of collaborative working together that we need to promote in this province, not discourage.

B. Malchow: They're able to take part in extracurricular activities if they want to play on the basketball team or the soccer team or whatever. It's worked that way for students as well.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you very, very much for coming today. I can see the interest here at the table. We appreciate your presentation. They give me a hard time when I let somebody go over 15 minutes, so I guess you've done well.

B. Malchow: Thank you. On our home page you have direct access to e-mail links for myself or any of the trustees or staff as well.

We will recess until 1 o'clock. Just a reminder that we have to be checked out by one.

W. McMahon (Chair): Good afternoon. We're going to start our afternoon presentations. First on the agenda is Betty Abbs. Good afternoon and welcome.

B. Abbs: Good afternoon to everyone here. I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you. I am here as a teacher today. In that role, I consider it my greatest obligation to my community to be able to do whatever I can to ensure that the minds of the next generation are open to the ideas of the world. I can expect no less of myself, so therefore, I reserve the right to speak freely today as a teacher in spite of the current situation I find myself in. I feel that the current status of the education system is something that is near and dear to me and will remain so.

I would like the committee to know that my remarks today are objective. I've made these remarks about the effectiveness of the provincial versus the local government. I'm sharing these thoughts with you because it is not possible for you, the members and elected representatives, to make the same observations that I can make unless you work in my position. My remarks are based on two assumptions that I would like you to either agree to or dispute.

Am I correct in assuming that this committee is charged with reviewing the provincial role in the education system — somewhat?

W. McMahon (Chair): Somewhat. We're looking for people's recommendations on choice, access, flexibility and quality in the public education system.

B. Abbs: Very good. I'm glad you mentioned the word quality. It's the main emphasis of my presentation.

Am I also correct, then, in assuming that the review is twofold: that is, you are looking for systemic and economic suggestions, changes and process review?

B. Abbs: The reason I ask is that in coming before you, a third assumption I've also made is that those two are interdependent. I don't think that is often looked at properly when we're doing review. When any review is undertaken, I'm assuming that systemic and economic functions are part of that review.

Where does that leave the provincial role? I think I should state right off the bat what I think the provincial role is. Provincially elected representatives are charged with being the guardians of the education system. Since they are also charged with being guardians of the education purse, it is the provincial ministry that is expected to ensure the quality.

I've highlighted that word. You'll get a copy later. I'm sorry. I didn't bring a copy for everyone, but that's so you can sit and listen and make your own notes, just

It's up to you to determine the quality of the system. It's never put at risk through mismanagement at the lower level. It is up to you to determine the ways in which that mismanagement is possible. You provide the checks and balances for the system's quality control.

Why do I remind you of this, or why do I believe in this? Just as in any departmentalized system, the overseer of the dollars to be distributed from the top down has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring that the dollars are effectively spent. If you compromise the quality of the system, then the system falters. More importantly, it is easier for elected representatives who come and go to abdicate their provincial responsibilities. At the very worst, quality is compromised when ministries opt to throw more money into a system while failing to fulfil the other role of managing systemic change.

Why is management for systemic change the responsibility of the provincial ministry? It is the provincial mandate. Local administrations, associations and unions are not, by their very nature, the guardians of the system. They are in place to look out for the interests of either a group, the workplace needs or their own administratively mandated reason for being. This places each and every one of the local groups in a direct conflict of interest with one another whether they like it or not. Due to the increasingly complex nature of any provincial system today, no amount of lower level administration can ultimately control the quality of service delivery within a prescribed provincial budget. Local admin groups mandated to look out for particular interests cannot view the system holistically. That's your role. It is just not possible. No matter how much local groups perceive themselves to be looking out for the greater interest, it's just not feasible.

What I would like to point out to this committee, who's going to report back to others in the ministry, is that the mismanaged side to the provincial mandate is systemic in nature. The cry, "We need more money," is a cry for systemic overhaul.

Why do I believe that the systemic side has been abdicated to a degree in the last few years, which I hope is going to be altered with the new government changes? The number one indicator that I've written down for inefficiency for any organization, from a government agency all the way down to a household, is lack of information. Like any organization out to review its efficiencies…. I'm defining efficiencies this way: it's the ongoing reorganization of funds, personnel and programs drawing on those funds in order to maintain the overall quality of a system.

You have talented bureaucrats at your disposal who can accept your direction to do the job in their respective roles as public servants. Once again, it is the role of local administrators. It is not the role of the locals to manage the quality; it is your role. If the provincial role of quality controllers is undertaken, as I believe it should be, then the overall effects would be the following. There are only two that I've written down. The number of local administrators needed to oversee service delivery is reduced, and service delivery, which is to provide provincially mandated programs, is assessed at the appropriate level as to its value in terms of human resource and for dollars spent. That's my definition of quality control and why I said that the two are interdependent — the systemic and the economic. They go hand in hand.

I've written the next section as the proof that's in the pudding. I do not lightly point out the need for a greater role for the ministry over the next months and, conversely, a diminished role for local officials. It's time for you to take charge for a while. Teacher dissatisfaction is evident. Parent dissatisfaction is evident. They're very much related to the ministry abdicating its provincial responsibilities, in my humble belief. I'm going to give you two examples of mismanagement. Well, I'm going to give you some more.

Let's move on to the provincial programs that I think are currently mismanaged by the government. If they were managed properly and holistically, many other problems like staff morale and economic inefficiencies would self-correct. There's the ESL program; that's English as a second language. I'm assuming that a lot of you have a lot of background at least on knowing what the major programs are that are being run in the province. Another one is learning assistance for the general student population in a school. Another is special needs integration, where we began some time ago to integrate all children into the program. Another is school library resources and the aboriginal program. These are the main components of the provincially run programs, aside from regular teaching-mandated course curriculum materials.

The best management indicators at our disposal are the policies we operate within. Conversely, mismanagement indicators are the abusive results or the unforeseen consequence of inaction or action with regard to those policies. This can take so many forms I couldn't possibly go into those here, and it's not my role.

Currently ESL students are permitted extensive access to funding far beyond what's required. What do I see as the provincial role in this? To assess a reasonable time frame that can be expected for an ESL student to acquire English within budgeted dollars. This is further dependent, and only the provincial government can know this, on the overall immigration numbers — things like where students are geographically. This is just a sampling of the kind of information, just one sample, on this one program and of what could be done to investigate further what needs to be changed in this.

Learning assistance for the general public. Currently, this program is being lumped in with special needs integration programs. I don't know who did that or how that came about. This has resulted in some cases in the program being totally gutted. In other cases, it's being delivered in such a piecemeal fashion as to be rendered useless. What do I see as the provincial role here? It's to do the research and gather the

information about the benefits of this particular program to the population and to the societal whole.

The aboriginal program. Currently, programs are being put together piecemeal in different schools in different areas. What is your role? It's a fledgling program. It needs careful monitoring for awhile, just like any other program getting off the ground. It's working beautifully in some places. In others it has problems. It's not fairly distributed or whatever.

Library resources. Currently, you may find a rural school with no access to a school library at all. What are the roles here? No child should be denied access to the world's information in this day and age. The trick is to provide the best possible access, including the use of human resources, in cost-effective ways to the general student population.

Special needs integration. That needs revamping entirely just so we know, as a fledgling ministry program, that it too is being efficiently done from the top down, where the money is being driven.

In addition to these roles, the provincial government has a responsibility to know and extol the benefits of holistic measures regarding any program that's undertaken.

I want to thank you for your time in listening to these first thoughts about the regular programs and what might be wrong or where your role is in that. I also have a few other suggestions that I've put in a handout. It's two pages long, and I reserve the right for you that those be read in private, as further suggestions. I am indeed a dedicated teacher who is dedicated to good government and good management of the system.

Will you be leaving a copy of your presentation for us? Great. We'll make sure that everybody gets a copy.

R. Lee: You mentioned ESL programs. The access to funding is actually far beyond what's required. We also have some history in the lower mainland. The funding is not enough to solve the problem. I don't know how you get your data.

B. Abbs: What you need to do as the body that's in charge of making sure that management of the system is done correctly is assess where the needs are being overspent and where the needs are being underspent. That's what I mean when I say you've got access to the numbers that are coming into the country. You know where the needs are. In some cases, it's a matter of putting your foot down and saying: "You've got a child here who's almost there, who's had some English in his home country. Two years should be enough." After that, if the school can't accommodate him in that time, they can go on and find other ways of funding it themselves. There should be ways and means to have the checks and balances in place so that you really give the need where the need is being met.

W. McMahon (Chair): That's okay. You answered it. Thank you very much for coming today and for your presentation. That's it. Thanks.

Our next presentation is from the Northern B.C. Construction Association, Rosalind Thorn.

Good afternoon. My name is Rosalind Thorn, and I am the president of the Prince George and the Northern B.C. Construction Association. We appreciate the opportunity to participate in the government of British Columbia's public consultations.

I would like to take a brief moment to introduce our association to you. The Northern B.C. Construction Association is an umbrella organization of eight local construction associations that operate throughout northern British Columbia. We represent the area of the province from Williams Lake north, which is two-thirds of it geographically. Our member associations operate in Fort St. John, Dawson Creek, Prince Rupert, Terrace, Kitimat, Smithers, Williams Lake, Quesnel and Prince George. Through this affiliation we represent about 300 firms who are both from the union and non-union sectors and who operate as general and trade-specific contractors, as well as suppliers, manufacturers and allied service firms to the construction industry.

These member firms, having involvement primarily in what we call the ICI sector of the industry — which is industrial, commercial and institutional — are responsible for putting in place and servicing the material infrastructure required by all segments of our society. In more detail, we build and service bridges, highways, mills, mines, office buildings, retail and commercial buildings, manufacturing facilities, ports, airports, schools and hospitals and, to some extent, multifamily housing. The Northern B.C. Construction Association is one of four regional associations that comprise our British Columbia Construction Association. Together we represent provincewide viewpoints.

Our members over the last number of years have had a number of concerns that relate to construction tendering and the policies and procedures, or the lack thereof, utilized by the Ministry of Education and its agents. The industry also plays a large role in apprenticeship training and, as such, has a keen interest in the secondary school apprenticeship system.

On the topic of tendering procedures and practices and policies, over the last several years standard tendering policies and practices have gone by the wayside for Ministry of Education capital projects in a lot of cases. Although requirements exist for ministry agencies to follow, they are seldom enforced. We have found school districts proceeding with projects by simply handing a contract to a certain local contractor, awarding construction management contracts without

the required permission of government to proceed under that type of contract and, also, selecting proponents without any public process or appropriate evaluation processes.

It is essential that government readopt standards for the traditional lump-sum method of construction delivery and develop rules and guidelines for the use of the alternate delivery methods that we're seeing now, such as construction management and design-build. Without having clear guidelines, the public construction process recedes behind closed doors, defeating the goals of transparency, fairness, accountability and, inevitably, efficiency.

I'm going to provide you with copies of our B.C. Construction Association recommended guidelines for construction management contracts, as well as design-build projects. It's our understanding that the provincial government is looking now at public-private partnerships for the construction of facilities. This will be new for our members and understandably of concern to them. Such a procurement method can tend to preclude many contractors from participating in government projects. I will be providing you with a BCCA brochure on PPPs, as well, and ask that the B.C. Construction Association be consulted on these areas during the current review.

It's our recommendation that the Ministry of Education should work with the capital division of the Ministry of Finance in consultation with industry to establish a uniform set of construction-tendering policies and procedures that include standard contracts. The various provincial and local government agencies involved in tendering public construction for the ministry should also be required to follow those policies.

On the issue of contracting out, with government accountability and efficiency being the benchmark we are all striving for, the construction industry is looking for a significant reduction in the use by public agencies of own forces in the construction process, including both the actual construction work and the current trend of local public agencies providing project management services. These types of activities not only erode the existence of a competitive private sector, they drive up the cost of construction and waste taxpayers' dollars. While on the face of it the use of own forces can often be made to look competitive with the private sector, the reality is that public agencies can easily bury costs and obtain subsidies unavailable to others, all at the expense of the public purse. Reducing this type of activity would go a long way towards reducing government spending.

During the course of tendering a number of school projects in Terrace this past summer, we were very surprised to discover that the Surrey school district had contracted with Coast Mountains school district 82, which is in the Terrace area, to act as project managers for their projects. At the time we were informed by the Surrey school district that they performed this service for a number of school districts in the lower mainland. Why would a school district have such a surplus of staff that they are in a position to contract themselves out to various other school districts around the province?

Also, during the tendering of trade packages on the new Fort St. John secondary school earlier this year, we were informed that school district 60, Peace River North, was intending to undertake the millwork contract for that project with their own forces. We understand that they had one tradesperson on staff. This particular millwork package was in the area of $70,000 and would certainly require more than one tradesperson to do that work. In a millwork shop it would probably employ three to four tradespeople and a significant amount of equipment to produce it effectively. We find with such practices that public workforces are built up, and agencies then need to look for additional work just to keep those employees busy.

Public bodies must consider a number of factors when making a decision whether to use own forces rather than private-enterprise construction companies. Accountability is a major factor of great interest to the taxpayer. Own forces construction work is often defended on the basis that the public bodies can do the job cheaper when company profits are not involved. We do not believe this to be true. Because of the highly competitive nature of the industry, profits are made as a result of expertise and efficiency. This therefore provides a very strong motivation for efficiency and quality. Where own forces are used, there is no such motivation, and we question whether the true costs are in fact recorded or known.

We believe proper accounting for true overhead and other operational costs will clearly identify the value of private enterprise. Profits made by the private sector companies provide all levels of government with tax revenues. To deny the private sector the opportunity to make a profit would certainly adversely affect the government's ability to collect taxes.

If a project being carried out by own forces takes longer to complete than anticipated or runs over budget, the government body will complete it, with the taxpayers picking up the extra cost. If, however, the project is being performed by a private construction company on a fixed-price tender, the company — not the taxpayer — would be responsible for covering the costs.

When a contracting firm constructs a project, its work is subject to quality inspections by independent agents. On the other hand, when own forces are used to construct, the public agency often provides its own inspections. We suggest that this does not provide the accountability required.

When performing its own work, the government body may require the purchase of construction tools and/or equipment and the carrying of inventory and will incur the cost of repairs, maintenance and replacement of those items. With a private sector company a public body is paying for the cost of operating equipment on that specific project only. When a contractor's equipment is idle, he carries the cost. When the public body's equipment is idle, then it's the taxpayers who carry the cost.

We believe strongly that government's business is not to be in the business of the performance of construction contracts and major maintenance and upgrading work. This association advocates the use of responsible contractors to quote on, administer, supervise and coordinate all phases of construction projects. It is our recommendation that the Ministry of Education and its agents, including school districts, be required to contract out construction work and services to the private sector. Public agencies should not be competing with the private sector while using public money. School districts should return to the mandate of providing core service, which is education, with moneys being directed into the classroom.

Infrastructure. Schools throughout the province need to be maintained and upgraded. Infrastructure planning should be done in consultation with the industry to develop a long-term solution to problems. Such processes will result in cost-effective scheduling that will ensure proper maintenance and upkeep, which in turn can extend the life of our current infrastructure and make the most of taxpayers' dollars.

While we appreciate and support your government reviewing the capital projects to ensure that they are not just politically motivated, we caution against putting a complete halt to all capital expenditures. Those projects that are needed and required should proceed. Right now construction volumes in the north are approximately 50 percent of what they were four years ago. Consequently, we are experiencing quite a major outflow of workers. We suggest that it is in government's best interests to retain a skilled and experienced workforce in the province. It is also in government's best interests to ensure that contracting, manufacturing and supply businesses are maintained, which will be poised to undertake the projects we will need in the future.

We accept that capital spending must meet the test of being fiscally responsible and support public consultation to ensure the best use of taxpayers' dollars. It is our recommendation that the Ministry of Education should consult with industry to develop a long-term plan for the construction of school facilities. School projects should be scheduled to begin early in the construction year in order to alleviate the higher costs of winter construction. That's something that we see often with a school project coming out, say, in September or late August. They just get into the ground, and they have all those additional costs in northern B.C. of hoarding and heating. If they could be tendered during the winter months so that the work could begin first thing in the spring, it would certainly help reduce the cost of those facilities.

R. Thorn: On the subject of apprenticeship. Our industry relies on a strong, effective apprentice and trades training system to ensure that we can meet the demands of private industry and government in the future. We do encourage government to work with industry to strengthen that apprenticeship system.

We fully appreciate the secondary school apprenticeship program and see it as a very positive step in introducing young people to the trades. It can also significantly reduce the age at which young people enter the system, and the credits that are given go towards their apprenticeship. The average age right now of a person entering the apprenticeship system is 26 years. With the average age of our journeypersons being somewhere in the 50-year range, we are going to be hard-pressed to meet the demands of tomorrow without significantly increasing our training programs.

We find that most employers are unaware of the secondary school apprenticeship program, which indicates a lack of communication with industry. We also find that school counsellors still direct students to university and college programs and often don't even recognize trades training. It is our recommendation that the ministry expand the secondary school apprenticeship program through partnerships with industry and expand the horizons of school counsellors in order for them to provide information and advice on a full range of career opportunities.

In conclusion, I reiterate this association's support for your government's review and consultation process. Our highest priority is to assist in any way we can to return the province of British Columbia to a vibrant economy that is competitive with other jurisdictions and a place where business is clamouring to invest. We believe that our recommendations will help move us in that direction, and we know that working together, we can get B.C. building again.

T. Christensen: Just a quick question. Is the association doing anything to take the various trades that it deals with into the schools so students are aware that those opportunities are out there and to build those bridges?

R. Thorn: Yes. We've done that in a lot of communities. Our local associations are very involved in career fairs when they are held by school districts. In Prince George there's a big one held by the College of New Caledonia in conjunction with the school district on an annual basis. We have put together teams from our association that include a general contractor, a trade contractor, a supplier and an architect or engineer that will go into a school class. They'll be able to talk from a very, very broad perspective on the variety of career opportunities available in the construction industry. We do try to do that wherever we can.

We also have classes from time to time that will come to our association operation, where they can see what we do in the association office. We have a plan room where the blueprints are kept for projects that are out for tender, and in the past, we have done a couple of site tours. We have a full day with classes, where we take them on a bus to two or three different job sites

and have contractors available to explain the trade work that's being performed on the particular job sites.

B. Locke: Thank you, Rosalind. As a Surrey MLA, I too am curious about our school district acting as general contractor, so I'll look into that.

I wanted to ask you if you can tell us this. We've heard a number of times that some apprentices have a problem being placed in industry. Can you tell me some of the problems that they might incur in being placed in a job setting after they've done their schooling?

R. Thorn: The apprenticeship program is a partnership between the employer, the apprentice and, right now, the province of British Columbia. You must be employed by a contractor — for instance, if it's a construction trade–related apprenticeship — in order to take that apprenticeship. You're indentured to that company, or in some cases in the unionized sector, you're indentured to the joint board. There is a contract or a partnership there.

You heard me say that our volumes in northern B.C. are at 50 percent of what they were four years ago, so that makes it difficult for apprentices that are in the system. Yes, they get laid off, and if they're laid off for any period of time, then they lose the portion of the training they've taken, or else they become disinterested and go off and do something else.

Because it's technical training working together with on-the-job training, it is difficult when our economy is in a downturn to keep all of the apprentices working that we will require for the future. This is why we really need to get together, both government and the industry, and work out a way for us to train these young people for the future. We are going to have so many of our tradespeople retiring in the next few years. It's very important.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thanks very much for coming today and for the presentation.

W. McMahon (Chair): Our next presentation is Azizah Sculley and Paul Ceretti. Good afternoon.

A. Sculley: Just a little correction. The pronunciation of my name is Azizah.

A. Sculley: That's okay. You can also call me Zee. That will be fine, yes. It happens all the time, so not to worry.

A. Sculley: Good afternoon to members of the standing committee and also to everyone present here today. I'm here to present to the committee my submission as a past student who has had a personal experience with the adult basic education program offered at the College of New Caledonia.

My experience as an adult learner at CNC began in 1980, when I was enrolled in the ABE program to upgrade my biology, chemistry and math to the level of grade 12. My understanding is that this program is currently known as career and college preparation. I needed an upgrade in these three courses, because my high school certificate from Malaysia was not considered an equivalent to grade 12 certification in Canada.

As a new immigrant at that time, I felt really fortunate for the learning opportunity that was available for me. I was already qualified as a state-enrolled nurse in England prior to emigrating to Canada, and my intent was to pursue my goal to become a registered nurse. I was able to achieve this goal through the diploma nursing program at CNC in 1982. I'm happy to say that I still see those dedicated instructors in the CCP and the nursing program around the college. I feel honoured to say that they have now become my colleagues as well.

Upon reflecting on my learning experiences, I feel that I have benefited at several levels from the support and dedication of the instructors in the ABE program and in the nursing program. I would call the first one "transition within CNC." I feel that the time spent as a mature student in the ABE program helped me tremendously with my decision to continue onward in the diploma nursing program at CNC. I'm happy to say that this transition occurred smoothly because of my knowing the instructors and my knowledge regarding the physical environment of the college. I consider those pluses for having gone through the ABE program.

The second benefit I felt I would call "comfort zone." I give tremendous credit to all my instructors at CNC for having the vision and the courage to push me towards achieving my goal to be an RN. As a mature student, my learning process has not been easy because of other responsibilities as an adult. However, words of encouragement from the instructors as they saw me around the college, at times rushing with my books between classrooms, gave me a big boost to stay motivated and focused on my journey. It gave me great comfort then to know that the ABE instructors remembered my name and still had my best interests at heart, even though I was no longer in the program.

The third benefit, I would say, is that of a lifelong learner. The confidence instilled by my past instructors has certainly made a tremendous impact in my life. I believe I have now become a lifelong learner after returning to school to obtain my BSN from the University of Victoria in 1986. I'm also happy to say that in May of this year I also received my master's in education from the University of Northern B.C. Currently, in my position as a nursing instructor at CNC, I try hard to moti-

vate my students, especially those who have gone through some upgrading courses themselves. As we all can imagine, the nursing program is intensive and can be extremely difficult for some students. This difficulty in the learning process can be related to a multitude of reasons. However, words of encouragement and appropriate guidance often will see the student through these difficult times. The students find it helpful when I share my experience as a mature learner, and consequently, they believe that there is hope for them and that they can achieve their career goals too.

Support services offered at the Centre for Student Success are invaluable. Although I was not privileged to such services at the time I was going through my education, I feel that students benefit tremendously when those services are available to assist them to become successful academically.

The joy of learning was instilled through my experience and contact with many dedicated instructors. When I share my learning experiences and my academic journey with my students, they often say that my sharing helped them feel that they can do it too. In my current position I take all the opportunities I can to pass on to them the excitement that I felt about learning, through my instructor, when I was a student in some of the same classrooms about 20 years ago. I feel a responsibility to motivate as many students as possible to return to school, to change their dreams, to become productive members of society and, if necessary, to start their journey through the college and career preparation program.

I think it would be a tremendous loss in many aspects if funding for such programs as CPP were to be reduced. It would lead not only to loss of many potentially productive future members of our community, but it would also have a negative ripple effect on the surrounding communities around Prince George, since those communities are also connected to the services at CNC.

I hope my presentation today, as a past student, has demonstrated to the committee some of the benefits of programs such as CPP that could be experienced.

In closing, I would like to suggest that the committee seriously consider maintaining the funding for education to ensure that education programs such as CPP and services such as the Centre for Student Success will be available to our current and future students.

P. Ceretti: Good afternoon. My name is Paul Ceretti. I will be speaking from the viewpoint of a mature student currently studying dental hygiene at CNC.

In the fall of 1997, 20 years after graduating from high school, I entered the college and career preparatory program, known as CCP, at CNC, with the goal in mind of entering the dental hygiene program, also at CNC. It would prove to be a relatively long road. In fact, this is my fifth year at the college, and I am due to graduate with my diploma in dental hygiene in June of next year.

It was quite a frightening and nerve-racking experience entering college for the first time after all those years had passed since high school graduation. However, I found all the staff at CNC extremely considerate and helpful in making this experience as enjoyable as possible. The people in the admissions office particularly — a place where I spend a considerable amount of time tinkering with schedules, inquiring about courses, finding out about various other services available on campus, etc. — were of great assistance.

As a mature student, I anticipated the transition from employee back to student to be more difficult that it actually was. In fact, the instructors welcomed and accepted us mature students with open arms. The enthusiasm of the teaching staff in the CCP program and their inexhaustible willingness to spend extra time outside of class with any student who needed it was truly inspiring. Personally, I took full advantage of this opportunity in order to build my confidence, which initially was somewhat lacking. To sit one-on-one with an instructor, going over a particular topic that was giving me some difficulty until I was able to understand that topic, gave me an incredible feeling of acceptance. From there, my self-confidence grew to a point where I could say to myself: "I can actually do this."

A perfect example of how the CCP program is a favourable starting point when returning to college is as follows. In the first semester in the fall of 1997, I thought I would be brave and take one university transfer course in addition to the upgrading courses I was taking. I did very well in all the upgrading courses. However, I scarcely passed the university transfer psychology course. This proved to me that I should take things in order and wait until all of my upgrading was completed before moving on to more advanced university transfer courses.

There were many other services available at the college that I was able to utilize, especially in those early upgrading years. In conjunction with the administration office, the counselling office was of particular benefit in choosing the appropriate courses. The Centre for Student Success is another resource that was very helpful with acquiring study skills, having essays critiqued and, in general, with advice on how to become a better student.

The beautiful and relatively new library — another wonderful resource offered at CNC — is probably my favourite part of the whole college. There are so many people there to help a student out with doing research, finding literature on a particular subject that might be difficult to locate, giving assistance with on-line article searches and so on. Additionally, in the library there is the media services office that provides all forms of media equipment and services such as movie cameras, computer scanning, overhead production and colour photocopying — all of which are invaluable when making class presentations.

Computer services and all the computer labs also provide students with the opportunity to enhance their educational experience. Computers are extremely ex-

pensive, especially for students who for the most part are on a very limited budget. To be able to have the use of a computer — including e-mail, access to the World Wide Web and printer services — for a nominal yearly fee is another invaluable resource that might help a student ensure academic success.

One of the main points I would like to make is the benefit of being able to realize the full extent of my post-secondary education at one institution. Many people I had the pleasure of attending classes with haven't had that benefit. They've had to attend one or more institutions, which can lead to course transfer problems. This can be an extremely stressful situation. Certainly the last thing a student needs is any additional unnecessary stress.

In closing, I would just like to say that I would find it very distressing if any services that I've mentioned, particularly the CCP program or any that I may have inadvertently neglected to mention, were to experience funding cuts. Had this program and these services not been available for me throughout the past four and a half years, I probably would not be here addressing you today. These programs and services in combination are essential to a complete post-secondary education. The post-secondary education of the people of this province, as well as all Canadians, is essential for the success of B.C. and the nation — assuring us a positive future. Therefore, the only recommendation that I would make to this committee is to leave the CCP program intact. Do not make any funding cuts to it or adversely alter it in any way.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you. Because of time, I'm sorry, we're not going to be able to take any questions, but Paul, I wish you the best of luck. Thanks so much, both of you, for coming today and making a presentation.

Our next presentation is from the Faculty Association of the College of New Caledonia, George Davison. Good afternoon.

G. Davison: Good afternoon. I'm going to start by asking if anyone on the committee has ever gone to a community college.

We think the community college is a place where people get their second and third chances. In the same class you can have three generations of learners.

We have to keep it affordable. We have to keep access available. We need more access rather than less. We would like expansion rather than contraction.

My presentation today is going to be in three parts: (1) an introduction, (2) recommendations and (3) a look at some issues that the college and the system face. I'm not going to read my written submission into the record. It's probably longer than ten minutes. I'm going to speak from notes. I also work in 50-minute blocks usually, not 15 minute blocks.

My name is Dr. George Davison, though the only person that calls me that is my mother. I'm the president of the Faculty Association of the College of New Caledonia, a union of over 400 full- and part-time workers in the CNC region, which is the central interior of British Columbia.

You've already had a presentation, I gather, first thing this morning from the college itself, and you've just heard, quite eloquently, the impact of the college on a couple of former students and a faculty member.

We do have some concerns about the timing of these hearings and the decisions that are being made about post-secondary education now. The core services review has been completed. Minister Bond has put forward her proposal for the future of post-secondary education in this province. The nine-point plan has already been approved by cabinet. With a provincial budget due to be tabled on February 19, 2002, I wonder what value suggestions made by witnesses will have on the government's policy when this committee's report is not due until the end of next February. But I am here today because I do assume that the committee is interested in what is best for learners in this province, and so am I.

I'm going to start with my recommendations. The faculty association urges the committee to heed the following, not only in making its report at the end of February but, more importantly, in caucus budget discussions that are going on now.

First, we would like you to fund the post-secondary education system fairly and equitably, keeping in mind accountability.

Second, we would like you to take a careful measured approach to further tax cuts and consequent cuts to public services and to keep education affordable.

Third, we would like a review of the post-secondary system with all of the stakeholders, with institutions, faculty, government and students, particularly with those who have had traditionally little voice — marginalized groups such as those in poverty or who see post-secondary education as outside their sphere of life. We need to hear from those who need the post-secondary system most.

First, in terms of improving funding and making it equitable and fair, there are global reasons to support post-secondary education. You're probably just as much in favour of it as I am. Colleges, along with universities, are social and economic stimulators. In order for British Columbia to be competitive within Canada, let alone the world, a healthy post-secondary education system is vital. We cannot give adult learners the tools to become more productive members of society,

whether those tools are critical thinking or a trade, if provincial funding is cut.

Specifically, CNC, the college I've been working at since 1990, has had a deficit as long as I've been here. The budgeting process seemed to consist of winter deficits. At this time of year there'd be a deficit. There would be layoffs or reductions in March, and then a miraculous balancing was achieved in the summer because of bookstore or cafeteria sales. This accounting sleight of hand, and the formula funding shell game that accompanied it, has gotten more serious lately as the budgets have not been balanced. The ministry has reviewed our operations closely and allowed us to run a deficit. We were told that all would be fixed when the new formula funding system was in place. That has never happened.

CNC's deficit today is $1.2 million, and they have a budget of just over $30 million. We have been told by the ministry to balance that budget and pay off the debt over the next four years. This cannot be done without significant cuts.

There have already been cuts. New facilities in Quesnel, a joint UNBC–CNC campus and upgrading to the Burns Lake campus, have been frozen. In Quesnel two faculty and ten operational staff members have been given notice of layoff or non-renewal or large work reductions, because cost recovery projections were way down.

Cutting FRBC has had a major impact on the college's ability to retrain displaced forestry workers. Northern rural colleges in resource-based communities need to have a different way of funding than large urban colleges in the lower mainland.

Second, we urge you to be cautious with tax cuts and service cuts and to keep education affordable. At this point, with falling government revenues, continuing along the path of cutting more taxes will cause massive disruption, so we urge you not to raise tuition. Please don't make the most vulnerable part of the education system, the students, suffer because of current economic circumstances. You've heard before that students are an investment in the future, that post-secondary education is an investment. This is particularly true for adult basic education. I think Azizah and Paul spoke to that very well.

Student debt can be crippling to young adults starting out. I'll just give you a comparison. In the 16 years I went to university on and off in the 1970s and '80s, I had a student loan of $4,000. My wife, for two years of post-secondary education at the college, amassed a $20,000 debt. We're still paying that off. My tuition in 1973 was $550. The same tuition at an Ontario university today is $4,000. In British Columbia it's roughly $2,500. We have a competitive advantage; we need to keep that.

We also urge you to keep the good faith of hard-working faculty and not scrap collective agreements. If planned increases to salaries and benefits don't go ahead, it will be almost impossible to attract good faculty to the British Columbia system. It will also be very difficult to keep good faculty in British Columbia as massive retirements hit other jurisdictions.

Third, consultation. Please take some time to get to know the system — the goals of Charting a New Course, the 1996 strategic plan for the post-secondary system. Those goals, which included relevance and quality, access, affordability and accountability, still resonate in 2001. There have been many excellent reports that the system has generated over the years. They deserve careful consideration. Your goal, I think, should be to oversee or encourage a thorough review of the post-secondary system with system stakeholders, with institutional presidents, with board members, with faculty, with students and with government representatives. We're happy to participate in such a review.

The third part of my presentation relates to issues facing the college and the system. I've divided them into a number of areas: access, maintaining quality, community support, technology, competition and some of the previous challenges we have faced. In terms of access the faculty association is opposed to long wait-lists and to the policy of turning students away. We have been doing that for several years. Post-secondary education does make a difference to people's lives and to the community they live in. We need to increase participation rates and make everyone — low income, first nations people, displaced workers — welcome within our doors.

In terms of maintaining quality our focus is student success. The institution is learner-centred. We offer relevant, quality programs and courses across a huge range. We are also extraordinarily accountable. Student outcome surveys note the high rates of satisfaction with courses and programs, the high graduation rate and employment after they leave us.

In terms of community support the college is very well supported by its community — not just in Prince George but in the regional campuses, in the Lakes District, in Nechako, in Quesnel, in Mackenzie and in Valemount. The programs that our satellite campuses offer reflect community needs and are offered at times to suit community learners.

In terms of technology we suffer from a lack of infrastructure and support. We have about half a dozen distance education courses, and a couple more are being developed now. But the funding that the college gets to support technology — about $75,000 a year — is inadequate to meet the needs of the twenty-first century. As a faculty association we also have educational concerns about on-line learning. It leads to the commodification of education — faculty work broken into pieces and performed by more part-time and contract faculty. On-line education is, arguably, more information but less teaching, less knowledge. Virtual office hours are 24 hours a day. Some places have three-hour response time to students' e-mails. Distance education is enormously expensive and time-consuming to develop, and unless it's supported properly, the rate of student success is very low.

In terms of competition we see the private sector as a threat to the public system. Taxpayers in this province have spent billions of dollars creating the infrastructure of a post-secondary system — universities,

university colleges, institutes and agencies. In this province there are 1,100 private post-secondary trainers; 220 are accredited. The provincial government spends approximately $300 million a year on its own training needs. Those profits don't fall back to the province. The private trainers make a profit; colleges do not.

The faculty association here, just as other people in British Columbia, have experienced the impact of federal transfer payment cuts, starting in 1984 with the Mulroney government and continuing through to 1992. In 1997 the Chrétien government got into the act, reducing severely the flexibility of the province in dealing with the demands for post-secondary education. The province then responded by cutting everything except health and education. It seems that the same thing is happening again.

We had a three-and-a-half-week strike in 1995 over the issue of contracting out faculty work. The college sought to circumvent our collective agreement and contract out credit courses at less cost and with no checks on hours of work, class size, etc. We argued that it would have diminished the quality of the programs that we offered at the college. The college ultimately agreed.

Finally, the appearance of the University of Northern British Columbia, while a great boon to the city and to northern British Columbia, has had a severe impact on the ability of the college to operate. For many years we were only able to offer new programs by cutting existing programs. When I came to the college, our first- and second-year university courses were jammed full. Our second-year offerings are considerably lower now. At one point we were at 79 percent of our funded FTEs.

We have bounced back. Our classes are now full again, and we're turning people away. But it has had an impact. So has the fact that the college has been in a perpetual deficit position. We think that the system needs to fund northern colleges better.

In conclusion, I'd like to reiterate my recommendations to improve the funding, to take a cautious approach to tax cuts and service reductions, to keep education affordable and, finally, to review the post-secondary system with stakeholders. That way, I think, we can all participate in the new era rather than having the new era imposed on us.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you for taking the time today and being here to present. We appreciate it. Because of our time limits, sorry, we won't have time for any questions.

Our next presentation is by Sandra Davie, from the Prince George District Teachers Association.

S. Davie: Thank you for giving Prince George teachers the opportunity to speak to you. My name is Sandra Davie, and I'm the president of the Prince George District Teachers Association. I sit before you today as a representative voice of 1,200 teachers.

Prince George teachers, along with my colleagues throughout the province, are committed to an equitable, accessible, flexible public education system that acknowledges and meets the needs of every child. We believe that the public education system is our greatest achievement as a democratic society — and our greatest responsibility. The provision of an educational system that provides opportunities for all of its children to live full and enriched lives should be the basic premise from which all educational decisions ensue.

We feel that the education system and the principles it represents are in jeopardy with the government freeze on educational funding. As teachers who enter the schools every day, we know that the system is stretched to the limit now. A freeze on funding, rather than the required increase, can only mean the deterioration of our system. We urge the government to re-examine its priorities and fully commit to the children of this province by ensuring that appropriate funding is in place. Investment in children is an investment in the future. We owe it to them and to the society that we value so much.

That said, the Prince George teachers would also like to speak specifically on the areas identified in the terms of reference: access, choice, on-line learning, flexibility and quality in education.

Access. We believe that a democratic society with a public education system should provide all of our children with equal access to programs, post-secondary education, good jobs and opportunities to fully participate as citizens. We recognize that if this is to happen, appropriate funding is an absolute. It is important that we continue to target funds to those students who have the right to fully achieve their greatest potential but who may need extra support. Only by ensuring that improved amounts of targeted funds are provided for aboriginal students and children with special needs can we be true to our goal of providing equitable access for all of our students.

In addition, we need to ensure that students of lower socioeconomic status are provided with school meal programs and that their schools are provided with additional funding. Children in a public education system have a multitude of needs and come from a multitude of familial situations. We cannot solve every problem they face, but we need to provide as much support in the public education system as possible so each child has the opportunity to make choices in his or her own life. This is both a moral and an economic imperative.

In addition, we should ensure that equal access to post-secondary institutions is provided no matter what the background of the student. Society is the ultimate loser if individuals are denied access to post-secondary institutions because of financial constraints. That individual does not have the opportunity to develop him-

self to his fullest potential, and that is a crime. Society also loses because the talents of that individual go undeveloped and unused. As costs of attendance at post-secondary institutions increase, many of our young people are unable to attend or are obliged to indenture themselves for years after graduation if they choose to attend. To have that happen in Canada in the twenty-first century is shameful.

Choice. We believe that a public education system must acknowledge and meet the needs of all of its children and that the school is the heart of the community and should meet the needs of its children as much as possible within the community school format. We also believe that while a public education system acknowledges and values the differences among its children, it must also promote a sense of community and community responsibility. That should be the mandate of a public education system in a democratic society. Certainly, without a sense of community and community responsibility we do not have a democracy.

The current public education system in British Columbia provides a myriad of choices for students. Students in the public school system can choose from the regular classroom setting, such enriched programs as the international baccalaureate or advanced placement program, Montessori programs, alternative education, pre-employment programs, secondary school apprenticeships, career technical centre opportunities and numerous career programs. All of these alternatives provide opportunities for children to reach their fullest potential in an environment that works for them. All of these programs are based in community schools. This is as it should be, if we, as a society, are to continue to promote an understanding of and respect for each other.

On-line learning. The public education system has invested heavily in technology so that every child can be best prepared for the future. There is a difference, however, between spending money and spending money effectively. We have a responsibility to fully determine what we want for our children and to fully investigate that the technology provided does what it is supposed to do. We need to know what the research is uncovering about on-line learning and its effectiveness. We need to know which programs deliver what they promise and which do not. We need to examine what our huge investment in technology has accomplished and ensure that children are provided with the tools they need to achieve their potential. We also need to remember that on-line learning and technology-based learning are tools that work for some but not for all. We need to ensure a balance of spending on resources so that the needs of all children are met.

Flexibility. The maintenance of a public education system is a provincial responsibility, because the provincial government has the mandate to ensure that an equitable educational program is provided to each child no matter where they live. Prince George teachers have heard our local school board speak positively about having more autonomy, more control of how to spend their budget and more power in meeting the needs of Prince George children.

On the surface these seem like positive attributes. However, in providing these abilities to local school boards, we believe that the basic principles of providing an equitable, accessible and flexible public education system for all may be lost. School boards would still have to work within a set budget provided by the provincial government, so there is really no advantage gained there. They would, however, have the total responsibility for determining how the money would be spent.

If targeting of funds is removed, then there is no way that boards could guarantee that the children who need the funds would receive them. Boards will make choices that could negate the possibility of all children reaching their full potential. If taxing power is given to boards, this too could be a threat to the equitable and accessible public-education concept. Wealthy communities could more easily increase their school budget, while communities suffering from economic downturns would not be able to provide the extra revenue required. Eventually, some citizens would have better educational opportunities than others, and our society would be the poorer.

Quality public education. The teachers of Prince George and of this province are committed to continuing to provide a quality public education system for all our children. To do this, we as a profession have an obligation to ensure that the best people are available to teach. You have heard, and you will continue to hear, that there is and will continue to be a teacher shortage in the next few years. This shortage is worldwide. If we are to retain our young teachers, we must make the salaries more competitive. Otherwise, they will go to other venues to teach, or they will choose other professions that will allow them to better provide for their families.

Right now Prince George is experiencing teacher shortages in math, science, tech ed and French immersion. If our students are going to be able to compete, they, too, deserve the best. I'm sure that teacher representatives from every local will bring you the same message.

We recognize also that education works best when all educational stakeholders work together. We need to ensure that all educational partners can meet to discuss the issues and work towards achieving a common understanding of what constitutes, and will constitute, a quality education for British Columbians in the twenty-first century.

Having a common conceptual framework from which to begin discussions can only help direct and improve communication and, in the long run, provide benefit for the children of this province. A quality educational system must also ensure that accountability and assessment measures are broad-based yet definitive about the complex job of educating citizens.

In conclusion, I would like to invite all of you to visit Prince George schools, where you will see dynamic and vital learning going on. As teachers, we want that to continue in community settings where all

children are valued for their uniqueness and where opportunities are provided for each to develop fully. We believe that without appropriate and increased funding, the system is in jeopardy, and in the long run, our democratic society is in jeopardy.

You will hear my colleagues speak after me of how their specific areas are impacted and will be impacted. Please take the message back to Victoria that public education is a sacred trust and must be our first priority as a society.

R. Nijjar: Sandra, I listened very carefully, and I've read over everything that you've written. Given that we have 25 percent of our high school students not graduating, not finishing with a diploma, obviously there needs to be some change. I don't think anyone of us is satisfied with a 75 percent graduation rate. I don't see here any actual suggestion for change other than to increase funding. What I'm asking is: are you saying that all we need is more money into the system and our system will improve or that we don't need any improvements to our system and therefore no structural change?

S. Davie: First off, I would like to take issue with the 75 percent. The model that is usually used to determine that is based on the grade 8 cohort who enters the school. Any child who does not finish at that school in grade 8 is not counted. If you look at the actual graduation statistics from schools where they start in grade 12, I would say that the graduation rate is more like 89 to 95 percent in most schools. We also have many children who, if they do drop out, return to school. They are not counted in the statistic. I do not believe that the idea of only 75 percent graduating is an accurate figure.

In putting more money into the system, I think we definitely need to look at the learning situation in schools now. We have a very good class size in the primary areas. Research is indicating that this is the best way to give kids a start in the system and is economically a good thing in the future. If you can get them going on the right path in the beginning, you're not spending the money later on. Now, however, they leave grade 3, where they come out of a class of 22, and they automatically go into a class of 29. Then when they get into a secondary school, they go into a class of 30. Those class sizes have a great impact on the type of learning you can do with your children, with the expectations of the curriculum. We believe, and I hope you believe, in a system where children learn by doing and by working on developing their critical thinking. Often when you have large class sizes, you tend to be the sage on the stage rather than the guide on the side — to use a cliché. In lowering class sizes, that's where money would be valuable.

We also need to have more specialists in the school system, because we have children with special needs. Money is being withdrawn from that. They are now in regular classes. I think we all agree that the inclusionary model is the way to go, but we need the financial support for it. We would like to see our librarians be able to be librarians and not do prep time so that the library can be the centre of the school.

Yes, I think there are things that could be done in the school. Class size is one that will improve the quality of education. I would take issue with the statistic of 25 percent not graduating.

B. Locke: I'll be really quick, because we've run out of time. Sandra, can you please identify the stakeholder groups that you said should work together to develop what constitutes and what will constitute quality education? Can you name the stakeholders you're talking about?

S. Davie: I can. I think it should be the teachers. I think it should be the parents. I think it should be the superintendents. I think it should be the administrators. I guess it should be members from the community who, perhaps, are not parents.

S. Orr: I'll make this very brief. Sandra, we had a very good presentation this morning from E-Bus, about electronic teaching. What is your feeling on that?

S. Davie: I think that on-line learning works for some; it doesn't work for all. We're investing incredible amounts of money into technology now. We need to investigate that and make sure it's money well-spent.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you very much, Sandra, for your presentation and your input to the committee.

Our next presentation is from the Prince George District Teacher-Librarian Association. We have Gerrie Green and Tiiu Noukas presenting.

Gerrie Green: Good afternoon hon. members, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Gerrie Green, and I'm a full-time teacher at an elementary school with 235 students. I enrol a kindergarten class of 20 students in the morning, and the rest of the day I'm the teacher-librarian for the school. My colleague is Tiiu Noukas, a full-time teacher at the junior secondary school, which enrols 450 students. She teaches two leadership classes and is also the teacher-librarian for the school. We represent the Prince George District Teacher-Librarian Association.

We are called teacher-librarians because we not only administer the library but are qualified teachers who specialize in the delivery of information literacy skills. The teacher-librarian is trained specially to evaluate and select resources that are suitable and cost-effective, to be part of a planning and teaching team with the classroom teacher, to teach information literacy skills and to promote literature.

What do teacher-librarians do to enhance student achievement? Jordan is a 13-year-old student working on a social studies unit on ancient China. The teacher expects a cultural component for this unit. Topics include the economy, beliefs, education, scientific contributions, medicine, societal hierarchies, homes and dynasties. Jordan visits the library to begin researching this project and grabs an encyclopaedia to look up China but doesn't find any historical information in the first couple of pages and assumes there is nothing on ancient China.

A teacher-librarian directs Jordan to a few pages further into the article and reminds Jordan to check for key words on the page to find the information that is required and to make notes rather than copy the source word for word, which will avoid plagiarism. The teacher-librarian reminds Jordan to select a variety of sources, including print and non-print, effectively using the subject directory featured in the on-line catalogue. If the required resources are unavailable in the home school library, the teacher-librarian can assist Jordan in locating resources from other school libraries and public libraries.

Jordan now heads for the favourite student resource — the Internet. When China is typed into the computer, an overwhelming number of results are found, beginning with travel guides for China. The teacher-librarian shows Jordan how to refine a search and suggests a search engine that will result in usable information which takes into account reading ability, specific content and authenticity.

Now, with all the resources that Jordan has assessed, the teacher-librarian can guide the research process with skills such as selecting pertinent information, note-taking without plagiarism, downloading effectively and preparing a reference list to accompany the report. Simultaneously, the teacher-librarian is assisting the other students from Jordan's class with similar tasks.

Without the assistance of the teacher-librarian, Jordan would not have access to resource-based learning. According to the Lance report, written in 2001, academic achievement of students is directly related to a well-stocked school library staffed by a qualified teacher-librarian. This research study supports the results from studies carried out in Alaska, Pennsylvania, Oregon and Colorado and concludes that academic achievement is higher when sufficient funds provide a professional teacher-librarian and support staff — for example, a trained library clerk. Information resources are available in a variety of formats. Technology is accessible to take the library program beyond the walls of the school library.

The practical implications of these findings clearly indicate that teacher-librarians must be both recognized and utilized by their professional colleagues in the school in the teaching and learning process. Technology is essential to a successful library program. Through our school district and our district resource centres, our school libraries have a fully networked library system that is incredible, which we use all the time.

Test scores rise with the quality of the library, which is comprised of a trained teacher-librarian, trained support staff and a well-stocked library that embraces networked information technology. Circulation statistics from Prince George school libraries indicate that the more teacher-librarian time provided correlates directly to increased borrowing by students, and students become more discerning in their requests for reading material. Trained teacher-librarians are able to find the right book for the right child at the right time.

A great deal of money has been invested in our school libraries and qualified personnel and resources. This program must be maintained and enhanced: firstly, to continue the high standards of our public education system; secondly, to develop lifelong learners; and thirdly, to create knowledgeable citizens who will become productive members of a democratic society. A quality school library program is vital.

Gerrie Green: No, she's here as a secondary librarian to answer questions that I can't answer.

W. McMahon (Chair): That's great. So we'll open it up for questions. Do we have any questions?

R. Stewart: You've touched on a subject that interests me, particularly because I have four young children, three of whom use the Internet and one of whom wants to. There are obviously search engines that teacher-librarians can direct children to, and I don't know the ones, but I assume they're more effective than the larger, well-known ones at actually helping students find appropriate materials.

T. Noukas: Two of them that are very good are Google and AJ, or Ask Jeeves. Jeeves is the butler that goes and looks for you, and Google is another good one. They have filtered out things that are inappropriate.

Gerrie Green: Google is run and maintained by teachers and teacher-librarians. The difference between it and the other search engines is that it finds the information that's pertinent. Other search engines find the first information that comes up — the one that's had the most hits on it. That's the difference. It's a very good one for students to use.

T. Christensen: One of the sheets you handed out talks about the difference between a librarian and a teacher-librarian. That's pretty helpful. When I went to school, we just had librarians.

Gerrie Green: Yes, approximately ten years ago we took extra training and changed to teacher-librarians.

T. Christensen: Do we still in most schools have both librarians and teacher-librarians, or do librarians not exist anymore?

Gerrie Green: They don't exist in the school system. They exist in the public libraries and so on, but in the school system it's teacher-librarians.

T. Noukas: We've been in schools for many decades. We used to be called school librarians, and then about 1980-81, we decided to enhance the teacher role because people just thought we were public librarians who worked in a school. We then changed our job description, and we became teacher-librarians — hyphenated.

R. Lee: My understanding is that teacher-librarians are classified as non-enrolling staff.

Gerrie Green: The portion of our job that we do as teacher-librarians. However, we only have eight full-time librarians out of 57 schools in our district. The rest of us teach lots of other things, and we are enrolling teachers when we're teaching. For instance, I teach kindergarten half time, so I'm an enrolling teacher as well as a non-enrolling teacher.

T. Noukas: In the 1970s most of the elementary schools here had full-time teacher-librarians, and the secondaries all had full-time teacher-librarians. With various educational cuts, starting in 1982 and the early nineties, our time has been eroded.

R. Stewart: I don't know whether this is one, but there are some school districts — for example, my school district — that had teacher-librarians and therefore weren't funded when the provincial government made decisions that would augment the services of teacher-librarians. Is this one of the districts that was disadvantaged by that way of dealing with the existing structure? Then a follow-up.

T. Noukas: No, I think with our teachers' association, teacher-librarians are part of the teachers' association, so there wasn't a differentiation in contractual kinds of decisions.

Gerrie Green: Do you mean when they set the limits of 700 students for one — when they changed that?

T. Noukas: I don't think it affected us that much. It's been more the cuts in education as an overall thing that has affected us. Our time in the library is based on the amount of points that our school has to spend on teachers, and there's a certain amount you have to spend in points for a full-time teacher. Of course, you need full-time teachers for classrooms, so that's the first place. Whatever points are left over are spent on teacher-librarians, learning assistance and so on. It's not really tied to the government funding. It's tied to the school district's policy of how they allocate funds.

Our next presentation is from the Prince George District Teachers Association, Modern Languages Local Specialists Association, Andrew McFayden. Good afternoon, Andrew.

W. McMahon (Chair): We've just got something being passed out here, then we'll let you start.

A. McFayden: True education is not to give a person a standard of living but a standard of life. That was said by a former Canadian Senator by the name of Gratton O'Leary, who was also a publisher. I believe he was right. Education is meant to produce well-rounded individuals and good Canadian citizens.

Good afternoon, members of the select standing committee and audience members. My name is Andrew McFayden. I'm a secondary French teacher with six years of teaching experience and a representative of the Prince George Modern Languages Local Specialists Association. I'll be speaking about second-language teaching in schools other than French immersion or Programme Cadre.

As Senator O'Leary stated, education is meant to give a person a standard of life. We have an opportunity with the work of this committee to really improve the way educational programs are delivered in this province. We refer to making modern languages full and equal partners in the system.

Why is language learning important? One word explains this: globalization. In a world where the focus is international, language is also becoming more important globally. It seems to be becoming less important here in British Columbia. Everything from business to diplomacy is becoming more and more global every day. In terms of marketability of a résumé, ask yourselves this question: if two people with identical qualifications were to apply for a job in business but one of them were to have a second language, which person would be hired for the job? The answer is obvious, in my estimation: the person with the second language.

Then, of course, there's the tourism industry, where thousands of people make their way through Prince George alone every year, many of them speaking other languages. While we realize that we can't have our students learn every language in the world, wouldn't it open many more doors if they were to have the opportunity to learn just one extra? I can tell what's going through your minds. They do have the opportunity. This is true, at least on paper, but is it really open to

all? Our contention is that it is not open to all. This is where the issue of flexibility and accessibility come in.

I'm sure that you're all aware that in British Columbia there are many requirements for graduation. A fine arts applied skill credit and CAPP are among them. However, a second language is not among them. My colleagues and I don't believe that this is serving to give our students the well-rounded education that we have been mandated to deliver. In fact, one of the things that we believe is saving modern language programs in this province is the fact that many British Columbia universities require a grade 11 language credit for entrance. If this requirement were not there, language programs would dwindle. Indeed, there is nothing requiring that our universities keep these requirements in place either.

B.C. is behind the times in the area of language education as far as graduation requirements are concerned. In Quebec, for example, in order to graduate, a student must have good marks in math, French and English. The system there is producing students who can function in two languages, yet the majority of British Columbia students can only function in one. In Europe the education systems in France, Germany, Finland and many other countries are producing students who can speak not only two but three or even four languages, yet the majority of British Columbia students can only function in one.

It is the area of graduation requirements that is wresting students out of modern language programs. Specifically, it is the requirement that every student graduating from grade 12 have a fine arts or applied skill credit. As professionals we have been lobbying the provincial government for modern languages to be included under this designation to no avail. In some cases locally, we have not even had a response.

We have dissected the fine arts and applied skill IRPs and have found that modern languages fall neatly into this category, so why not just add modern languages to the list of accepted course areas? I have attached to my brief the introduction to the fine arts IRP, with some parts highlighted, as an example.

The present grad requirements are doing more to limit educational opportunities than they are doing to create them. Just this year I have lost three students out of my French 12 class — that's a record — because of conflicts with sciences or their applied skill credit. They have told me this. I lost one of the most motivated language students I have ever taught in my four years at Prince George Secondary because of this. Kevin was as upset over having to drop my course as I was over him leaving it. He still speaks to me in French when I see him in the halls, because he doesn't want to lose it.

Education is supposed to be meaningful for the students, but it is not if they are forced to choose between something that they really want to take but can't because of the obligations placed upon them by fine arts, applied skill and other graduation requirements.

Our solution is a choice. The best way would be to add modern languages to the list of courses acceptable under the fine arts or applied skills designation or make modern languages a separate grad requirement. To say that one must have one course or another is negating the importance of all non-included courses in British Columbia and especially of one aspect of education that makes students extremely versatile: languages.

Working hand in hand with this would be the teaching of French at the elementary level, starting in the very early grades. Right now it is started in grade 5, as per the IRP. It should be started earlier to give students the exposure to Canada's second language at an earlier age. As a youngster in Ontario I started learning French in kindergarten in a non–French immersion setting.

Another province has a system of credit-granting that begins in grade 11. This does not give students a sense of ownership or responsibility. Often, junior students will drop an elective midway through if they feel they will not pass it. They just let it slide. Many just give up because they know it'll not impact them anyway. To remedy this, it is proposed here that the credit system be extended to grade 9 so that each course taken counts for something towards graduation, like the system in Ontario. This would create that sense of ownership and responsibility.

Thompson Highway, a Cree playwright, said in 1990: "I know so many people who speak only one language. To me that's cultural poverty." I find unilingualism sad. The government of B.C. needs to give one of the most marketable of educational components an equal place in the graduation requirements of British Columbia students. We don't think that anyone could argue that being able to function in a second language would be a detriment. We urge the committee to recommend giving second languages an equal place in our education system and making modern languages part of the graduation requirements. This would give our students that higher standard of life.

R. Stewart: We've heard before the suggestion that we put modern languages as one of the applied skill graduation requirements. Have you got any response back? You said you'd suggested this in the past, and it hasn't been accepted. What are the downsides to it? Is there a potential, then, that the students won't be taking some of the applied skill or fine arts programs that they ought to be taking because they'd be substituting modern languages that they may already know, for example? Have you heard any of the downsides?

A. McFayden: Downsides to putting the languages in with the fine arts and applied skills?

R. Stewart: Putting languages in as one of the acceptable fine arts or applied skills.

A. McFayden: I haven't heard any of the downsides. In fact, most of the students that I've talked to….

I've had students come up to me and tell me that they cannot take language courses because of conflicts with other graduation requirements. That may also be scheduling difficulties, but the fact that the graduation requirements are there automatically puts it above any modern language courses.

I guess the point that I was trying to make is that it's not so much the graduation requirements that we're trying to instil here. It is the fact that globally, just as the Internet and the technologies are becoming important, languages are as well. We think that has to go hand in hand.

R. Stewart: I understand, but even if our report says that languages are important, that's not a very good recommendation. If we can recommend, though, that here's one of the barriers to students going through the language program, personally, I'd like to see that and would consider it seriously. I'm just trying to get some idea of what we're going to hear from the other side. We haven't heard anything. Of course, there is not a proposal on the table yet.

A. McFayden: I suppose that one of the drawbacks would be, as you stated, that you're adding one more thing to the list of courses to choose from. As a result, if there are some students who are more likely to have taken languages in the first place, they would take languages instead of some of the other courses that are available. That would be one of the drawbacks, I suppose.

We've heard presentations, as Richard just mentioned. Two-thirds of us sitting at the table are bilingual. In my constituency, the big issue is English. I'm from Quebec. I was brought up the same way you were with learning from kindergarten, but it's everywhere. You can learn on the street corner. My question to you is: are you proposing any language, or are you starting with French first as a proposal?

A. McFayden: I stated here that French should be taught from an earlier grade, simply because of the fact that the IRP already exists from grade 5 and up and the fact that it is, I suppose, in terms of policy anyway, Canada's second language. In the secondary stream, there is much more in terms of choice. In Prince George we have being taught at the present time French, Spanish and German, and in the past, we've had Russian, Punjabi, Mandarin, Japanese — a whole myriad of languages — taught here. Choice is definitely there, I believe, and must be there.

E. Brenzinger: Do you think the faculty are available to teach in the language…?

W. McMahon (Chair): She's supposed to ask one question, so she snuck that one in.

W. McMahon (Chair): Do you want to ask it again? You can ask it again, and maybe you'll get an answer.

E. Brenzinger: If the recommendations were to implement language into the school system and it was accepted, do we have enough faculty in British Columbia with the language-based experience to teach?

A. McFayden: I'm not sure myself. I know that I'm intending on going back to school myself to learn Spanish, but that's in the future yet.

R. Lee: Thank you for your presentation. In B.C. there are other associations promoting the early teaching of languages, second languages and modern languages. Have you talked to them to get their opinion on the requirements for graduation for languages?

A. McFayden: What I referred to in my presentation as having lobbied the provincial government…. We did this. There's a little bit of a history. This started before I came here, actually, but it's continued since I've been here. What we've done on a local level…. As a local specialist association we wrote the provincial government at least twice — not the government itself but the top-level people in the Education ministry. That is what I was talking about. We did this as a local association, asking the ministry: "Can we do this?" That's what we did, so we haven't really been in contact with the other associations, no.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you, Andrew, for your presentation today. We appreciate it.

Our next presentation is by Kathi Hughes — the B.C. Alternate Education Association. Good afternoon, Kathi, and thanks for coming.

K. Hughes: I want to thank you for sitting here all day. I decided that we should start the presentation with this little challenge. You have to display your folders such as this one. You have to turn it to purple and have the right headings in the right place. I thought I'd give you a hands-on activity to start with.

K. Hughes: Well, we encourage the use of visualization, multiple intelligences. You name it; we do it.

Anyway, thank you for this opportunity to offer input into improvements to the education system in British Columbia. Your mandate of improving access, choice, flexibility and quality throughout the system is laudable and — given the current economic and world angst — challenging.

I am speaking today as an executive member of the B.C. Alternate Education Association. When I polled my executive colleagues and asked them what I should be speaking of today, the unanimous response was: "We want you to speak about the role and funding involved for those people without whom our students would not have success." And that's our youth care workers. Now, I know this morning you heard from our youth care workers. This will give you an opportunity to ask more questions and to hear more about the role of our youth care workers.

The B.C. Alternate Education Association is a provincial group representing approximately 600 teachers. Our mandate is to ensure equity, access, choice, flexibility and quality for approximately 7,000 students who are experiencing, or who have experienced, significant social, emotional and behavioural challenges.

These at-risk students are indeed special. As such, they are included in the ministry's special ed categories of rehabilitation or severe behaviour disorder. To experience success in the educational system, these students require specialized services and resources facilitated by skilled teachers working together with qualified youth care workers to facilitate interministerial collaboration, family connection and community partnership.

Prior to giving you specific feedback, allow us to view your mandate within the context of the overall goal of education in the province of British Columbia. Effective and accountable governance requires an affirmative response to the question: are we meeting our goals? Change should not occur for the sake of change alone. Change should occur so that we can better ensure the meeting of our goals.

The primary goal of the British Columbia school system is to support the intellectual development of students with the support of families and the community. Enabling students to achieve the goals of human and social development and career development is a responsibility shared by schools, family and the community. These goals apply to all students, including students with special needs. This goal is the compelling force behind the service delivery model currently in place to meet the needs of alternate education or at-risk students.

Through our interministerial protocol agreement with the Ministry of Children and Family Development — which is also referred to as the rehab protocol of 1989 — we are able to provide youth care worker services which link the community and family so that community services, families and education work collaboratively in meeting the complex needs of the students. This linkage allows equity, access, choice, flexibility and quality of service delivery for these students. Furthermore, this linkage enables us to meet the stated goal of the British Columbia school system. Teachers alone cannot ensure that this goal is met. However, teachers and youth care workers working together can ensure the goal is met.

We urge you to work with us so that the current cuts to the MCFD budgets do not erode the services of the youth care workers who are the critical conduit to parents and community services. Although the number of students in need of youth care worker services continues to increase, MCFD funding cuts have occurred and, without your leadership, will occur, eroding this critical service.

The funding of youth care workers must be maintained and increased, either through the Ministry of Children and Family Development or by handing it over to the Ministry of Education. History has proven that resources invested in interventions for youth are far more effective than resources invested in rehabilitation for adults.

We urge you to ensure each ministry is examining its interministerial protocol agreements with Education so that services are maintained and so that access, flexibility, choice, quality and equity remain and perhaps even improve. Just in case you're not aware, there are approximately 20 protocols in place with other ministries that guarantee services to our kids.

Members of our association advocate for those students who are too pained and too damaged to plead for themselves. We are the voices who ensure that every alternate ed student has equity within the system, whether it be access to computers, learning resources, the library or school events. Our youth care workers are the voices who ensure that every alternate ed student has equity in food, shelter and protection.

We strongly advocate that the targeted funding be maintained for all special ed students so that we have a base on which to continue our fight for equity for these kids. We also continually advocate for fairness for our students. In the words of Richard Lavoie, fairness is providing what each student needs. Therefore, we ask the Ministry of Education to reflect the real cost of providing service to special education students.

The majority of districts within the province overspend in the area of special education. This means that special education is not being funded on the basis of fairness or reality. The capped low-incidence categories are not reflective of reality. We cannot continue to meet the goals of access, choice, flexibility and quality without the appropriate funding. The real number of students in the low-incidence categories keeps increasing. The real cost of meeting their needs is spiralling. However, funding remains stagnant. Given this grim reality, we cannot, without change, continue to ensure access, flexibility, choice, quality and equity.

Within the alternate ed system many of the youth whom we represent are of aboriginal ancestry. Here in Prince George the number of aboriginal youth in our community programs is 66 percent. Through ministry-

targeted funding to the aboriginal education board, these students benefit from services and resources which facilitate choice, flexibility, quality, equity and access. We strongly advocate for the continuation of targeted funding for aboriginal students.

To improve the opportunity of educational success for the growing numbers of impoverished and disenfranchised youth, we must lobby for continuation of funding from MCFD for school meals and community schools. As teachers, we cannot expect a student to learn when he or she is homeless, abused or starving. In these situations, learning just doesn't happen. Again, we urge you to provide leadership to ensure that the interministerial protocols providing these services are maintained.

Finally, we need to develop appropriate educational services and resources for those students who, due to early trauma and past situations beyond their control, are not able to complete their formal education by the age of 19. Currently, many students are just beginning in their late teens to experience success through choices offered by the alternate ed system. However, their success turns to remorse when they realize that there are limited educational opportunities beyond the age of 19. We need to develop choice, flexibility, access, quality and equity for those over the age of 19.

In summary, we urge you to view the mandate of access, flexibility, choice and quality for alternate education students relative to the goal of education. If schools, family and community are to work together, we must affirm our commitment through appropriate funding to those who are the conduit, our youth care workers.

On the next page of your handout — I know it was a question that was raised this morning in terms of the categories and the count — you'll see the 13 special ed categories through which our funding is generated. Alternate ed students — they're also called rehabilitation students — are category N. The other category which generates funding for youth care workers and for alternate ed is category H, which is the severe behaviour. Category N is part of the low incidence. That's the capped category. Regardless of the number of kids, we only get a certain percentage of our total school population included in the category. We might have 10 percent of our kids fitting the category, but we're capped at about 4 percent in low incidence.

I have one question for you. On the second page you mention that you have 66 percent of the aboriginal youth in community-based alternate ed programs. How many students is that? How many students are in your program?

K. Hughes: At the September 30 count we've got about 340 kids, so 66 percent of 340.

R. Lee: You mentioned that beyond the age of 19, there are limited educational opportunities. Are there other basic educational programs for adults?

K. Hughes: I guess what I mean by that is that right now we look at our partnership. This is speaking from Prince George, not from the provincial. If you open the purple booklet to page 37, you'll see a little program in that community-based district program services called GAP. That's a funding partnership we have with HRDC, Human Resources Development Canada, MSDES — the acronym for the ministry of advanced ed — and the College of New Caledonia. What we're able to do through that partnership, and particularly with the funding from HRDC, is offer a lot of certificate courses. The program services those kids who are ages 17-to-24 and who are the ones who perhaps got a late start with their education. We're able to continue with upgrading, offer them certification and lead them into college. They require that extra amount of time. They're not ready for that step of going into college without the supports of the youth care worker, the teacher and the college instructor all working together.

I sent a copy of this presentation to our local HRDC office and received an e-mail response today. Her interesting comment back was on the number of aboriginal kids whom she sees in programs that are being funded through HRDC. In the north we're seeing a tremendous need for our aboriginal youth in terms of providing that continued education. They're not yet able to go right into the college environment for their upgrading without those other supports in place for them. That's the big difference. They need those supports until the age of about 24.

R. Lee: We are also told that the adult basic education program is available for adults to finish high school courses. I think opportunities are still there for them to get basic courses — beyond 18 or 19.

K. Hughes: The educational opportunity is there, but again, the kids we're talking about need those other supports. They can't do it on their own. That's where we need the partnership and community involvement: to provide those supports to get them into the environment. We can't just leave them at the door when they turn 19 — not this group of students — and say: "Okay, you're on your own." It's building those supports around them to give them the confidence and to make sure.

A lot of our kids are — I don't like to use labels — perhaps kids who are fetal-alcohol. We know that they developmentally need a continuation of supports through the system. They're not ready at age 19 to walk into that college without that support system and have success. That's where we see the gap in service.

Our next presenter is Beverly Brooks, Prince George Montessori Education Society. Good afternoon, Beverly. I'll have you introduce who's with you, and if you're speaking, we'll have you give your name for Hansard, who's recording.

B. Brooks: My name is Beverly Brooks. I'm the chairperson of the Prince George Montessori Education Society. This is Karen Stahl, who's co-chair, as well. She's here if we need any assistance with questions. I'd like to thank the members of the committee for this opportunity. We've handed out our report. I'm just going to read the executive summary and then list our issues and recommendations.

The Prince George Montessori Education Society, in conjunction with school district 57, has been operating a choice program in Prince George for the past 16 years. During this time, we have encountered and overcome many barriers to operating a successful choice program in the province. However, factors in the current education system are preventing the program from reaching its true potential. We believe that it is possible to modify the education system to be more supportive of choice programs while maintaining standardized educational objectives within the current funding structure.

Our primary objective in submitting this report is to support choice in the public school system and ensure that an appropriate framework is in place to allow programs to thrive. We need to ensure that while standardization of curriculum and learning outcomes at the provincial level is necessary to ensure a quality education for all children in the province, there is flexibility for how the delivery of educational services may be provided so that individual school districts and programs can be fully responsive to the educational needs of a wide variety of families.

We have summarized the issues we are currently facing in a format that we believe is appropriate to any choice program and have focused on specific Montessori concerns where we felt it would add clarity and understanding to the issues. We recognize that everyone has different levels of knowledge about Montessori. We have kept most of the statements generic and have included some information about Montessori in the appendices at the end of the document.

Access to choice programs. Recognition of the need for long-term planning for the growth and expansion of choice programs. In particular, there is an increasing demand in Prince George for Montessori middle and high school. Recognition of the need to support teachers in providing clear and consistent guidelines in how to integrate the B.C. curriculum with the choice program curricula or methodologies. Recognition of the importance of the school environment and philosophy of program delivery.

Recognition of parents supporting the choice program as an independent advisory group. Information to parents about which choice programs are available and how to access these programs needs to be more readily accessible. Information defining the choice programs also needs to be more readily available to parents, teachers, administrators and others working in the school system.

The quality of choice program delivery. The school environment needs to be philosophically aligned with the program operating within the school. Objectives of a choice program and its core concepts need to be clearly defined and communicated to all parties, and the program needs to be continuously evaluated to see if it is meeting those objectives. Where gaps are identified, action plans need to be prepared to eliminate these gaps. Accountability needs to be established to ensure that program goals and objectives are met and there is a process in place to resolve issues as they arise. Teachers teaching classes in a choice program need to be committed to the philosophy of the program and be properly trained in the appropriate instructional methodology.

Flexibility in meeting the objectives of a choice program. Recognition of the importance of local factors in program delivery. Recognition of the variability within a choice program in different locations.

Our summary recommendations. Develop the appropriate framework for how a choice program will work in the province. Define provincial versus district levels of responsibility. Define the core concept of a choice program, its goals and objectives, and a statement of basic methodology at a school district level. The use of contracts between a school district, the province, parent groups and schools in which educational services are being provided, and how they will be delivered.

Establish a committee of parents, school district administration and teachers to assist in the development of the framework. Ensure that accountability for meeting expectations is established for each party involved in the delivery of educational services. Where possible, choice programs with specific philosophical differences from neighbourhood programs should be offered in single track schools. Evaluate policies, procedures and regulations to ensure that they are supportive of choice programs. Professional development for teachers.

School district policies and procedures need to allow for different program requirements. Ensure that the impacts of changes proposed in the future are properly evaluated for their affect on choice programs. Ensure that adequate support is available for teachers teaching in a choice program. Ensure that parent groups supporting choice programs have a formal voice with the ministry and school district. Ensure that adequate information about choice programs is available and improve the accessibility of information to interested parties.

The Ministry of Education continues to support us in working with the BCTF to recognize the difference in approach due to varying program requirements. The Ministry of Education collects and disseminates appropriate statistical information to parent advisory groups

and other interested parties for the purpose of program evaluation and planning. There needs to be a clear definition of the responsibilities of the ministry, the school district, the school administration, parent advisory groups and the roles they play in delivering educational services. The ministry needs to provide guidance on expected learning outcomes and assistance and support to school districts in developing the delivery methodologies to meet these outcomes. However, the school district, in conjunction with the school administration and parent advisory groups, needs to determine the best method of delivery that takes into consideration the goals and objectives of the choice program as well as local factors.

The biggest missing component in the current educational system to make choice successful is the parents. Parents are dedicated, educated and knowledgable about educational services and children. As an advisory group, we are committed to assisting the Ministry of Education in ensuring our children have the best education possible. We are looking forward to working with all parties in the education system in the coming months and years to make quality choice programs a reality.

S. Orr: Thank you for the presentation. Can you tell me, over the past 16 years that you have been in operation, has your enrolment…? Obviously it's grown. In the last few years, how has your enrolment been? Has it declined?

B. Brooks: No, it's gone up. We just opened our second school four years ago because of the need to expand enrolment.

B. Brooks: We have 155 in our first school. We have approximately 50 in our new school that we just opened up, as well as 60 in our preschool and 40 in our out-of-school program.

K. Stahl: One of the things to add to that is the enrolment at our preschool and our child care centres has actually been increasing in the last three to four years. That's at a time when enrolment at other centres in town has decreased. So we're expecting that those kids will stream into the elementary school system in the next few years.

R. Nijjar: Can you please tell us how many Montessori schools there are in British Columbia?

B. Brooks: Sorry, I couldn't tell you. I know that besides the coast, I think we're the only other one that has a program in the public school system.

K. Stahl: Actually, I know that. I think there are three elementary schools in Coquitlam, there are a couple of them in Surrey, and there's one in Richmond and one or two in Vancouver. I'm not sure about the exact numbers. I do know those are the communities that have public Montessori schools. Then there are a lot of private Montessori schools in Victoria, the Okanagan and in the lower mainland as well.

R. Nijjar: When you make these recommendations, you just make them as individuals. You haven't made them to the province or to the ministry?

R. Lee: Your presentation, the second page…. I don't understand the statement there. It says: "Where possible, choice programs with specific philosophical differences from neighbourhood programs should be offered in single-track schools." What does it mean?

B. Brooks: We have had some clashes in the past between the two different philosophies of a neighbourhood program, say, and a Montessori program. At the current time we share schools with a neighbourhood program. Both of our schools have both neighbourhood programs and Montessori programs in them.

K. Stahl: Instead of our program being offered at one school, in its entirety, we have two schools. Each has Montessori classrooms as well as neighbourhood classrooms operating within a single school. That's what the term "dual-track school" refers to.

B. Brooks: We find it would be easier in some instances to have one philosophy in a school when there are decisions made that involve an entire school.

K. Stahl: We haven't specifically asked for that. We feel that would be the best way to address our issues. If you look further into the document, we've got a lot more details. Really, what we've said is that we want a process in place so that we can deal with issues and recognize what the issues are.

One of the things that's lacking is a core concept of what Montessori is and what the objectives of the program are. It's really hard to go to the administration right now and say that we feel that what's happening is not in accordance with the goals and objectives of the program. Right now we don't have a clear definition of what the goals and objectives of the program are. We find that in some cases, different things are happening at each school. In a lot of cases, it's really hard for the administration of the school, if there are two different programs in place, to effectively make decisions that affect both programs. The best answer, from our point of view, is a single-track school. If that cannot be provided, though, we feel there are other methods of accomplishing that.

E. Brenzinger: I'm going to ask you a question, but it has to be a brief one because we're running out of time. In your program, do you do assessments? What do kids with special needs do if their parents choose to go into the program?

B. Brooks: We do have a special needs child in our program, actually more than one.

K. Stahl: The same thing that happens in the neighbourhood programs or the rest of the school system would be…. The same supports and everything would be available for those children in the Montessori program.

Our next presentation is from the Career Educators Local Specialty Association, Nino Fabbro. Good afternoon. Go ahead.

N. Fabbro: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and committee members. Thank you for coming to Prince George and allowing us career educators to give you some views and concerns that we have with the career programs in the district.

I'm from Trail originally. I grew up there and managed to get an apprenticeship at Cominco. I completed my machinist's apprenticeship and thought that wasn't enough, so I went to UBC and started teaching in this district 30 years ago. I've been in the career prep area for the last six years. It's been a very rewarding career for me. Unfortunately, this is my last year of teaching, but I think it was the best thing I could have done.

The areas of concern that we have in the career program area are: the current funding policies for the career programs; the realistic level of support for alternate and PEP students; and the resolution of the funding policy for career preparation, the Career Technical Centre and secondary school apprentices, funding that will support career programs in all of the schools.

Career programs in the Prince George area provide service to the following student groupings: career preparation, alternate ed, PEP, SLR, continuing ed, the CTC and secondary school apprenticeships. In seven schools in the district we have just over 1,300 students in these programs.

As you can see, work experience opportunities can be accessed by students with a wide variety of abilities and needs. Continued funding is essential to maintain career programs in our schools, providing students with choice, access, on-line learning, flexibility and quality value-added education. Career programs provide that link between academic learning and the work world.

I'm going to give you some specific cases that I've run across in the last few years with regard to the funding that we've received over the last six years and how it has decreased. Presently access to funding is based on 100 percent retention and completion rates. That is, if a school has 100 students registered in grade 11 career preparation, those students must graduate and receive grade 12 credit in career prep in order to receive the funding.

Now, this is what has happened. For example, I had one student that attended the RCMP academy, and she did very well. She went through a training process and an interview process. She spent nine days of her spring break at an RCMP youth academy. She received 120 hours of credit for all that work that she did. She completed that in grade 11, but because her father was a member, they moved to Newfoundland during her grade 12 year. So we didn't get the funding that was put out for that particular student to get her that work experience. That's one of the things that we're concerned about.

The accountability formula is unattainable and unrealistic. As such, it has put career programs in jeopardy. This formula dictates an ever-decreasing funding situation from year to year. My intake of grade 11 students in the year 2000 was 105 students. In 2001 there were 110 students who graduated from College Heights Secondary and received their career prep status. This year my funding was cut by 9.16 points, or $54,000, even though I have 142 grade 12s and 105 grade 11 students now in career prep — more students, less funding.

In reality, what's going to happen next year is…. We have myself and another teacher doing the career prep in our school, and it looks like we're going to lose one of us. Because I'm retiring, I guess it'll be me. That one teacher is going to have to do a lot more work by himself. Another concern is that PEP and SLR students need extra support during their work experience. There are occasions when job bosses are available, but only to a maximum of two days. More support is needed for these students.

Under current legislation, PEP or SLR students, who, by nature of their programs, are being prepared for the workforce, just can't get enough time out there

on work experience because we can't have them out there by themselves. If these students get out on work experience, they cannot use the unpaid work experience as part of the 500 hours that the government has legislated as essential in order to get their minimum wage. Let's say that a student is out on work experience, doing food preparation, and he's out there for 120 hours. He cannot use that 120 hours and take the number of hours down to 380. We're asking if you could see somehow making the SLR program a little bit better by allowing the students to use those hours as part of that 500 hours for the minimum wage concept.

Flexibility of funding. In career programs we frequently experience the frustration of doing work and not receiving the funding, and the RCMP example is a good one. Another one is the frustration we have when we have students who are in career programs, such as career prep, SSA and CTC students.

For example, the student who chooses the CTC is only funded for that program. If he or she goes to the career technical centre and gets his level C welding certificate and gets an apprenticeship, we do not get the funding for that apprenticeship. That student is also a career prep student. He also goes out on work experience. We do not get the funding for the career prep program for that particular school. The student gets support from the school. He gets support from our local college. He gets support from the school district career centre, but again, the funding is only channelled into one area, and that would be the CTC. We urge you to look at a resolution to that particular policy.

According to stats from the Industry Training and Apprenticeship Commission, ITAC, 60 percent of all jobs in the next ten years will be in the trades and technology area and will not require a university education. Being a machinist by trade and retiring in a few months, I already have a job, or an offer of a job, to go back and be a machinist. I may not do that, because I want to retire, but the opportunity is there.

The SSA is something that we need to look at as a program. I was really happy to see everybody's head come up when Rosalind mentioned the SSA. I am biased about this program. I think the SSA is one area where the government can help the young kids of B.C. in their education. There are problems. For example, one of the problems that we found out with the SSA program was that this one lumber company has employees working for it, and of course, they want apprenticeships. They want to become that millwright, machinist, welder — whatever trades are out there. What happens is that the students don't have a chance when they come out of high school or even to get an SSA. "We'd love to take you as a SSA student, but Mr. Campbell has been here for ten years. We're going give it to him first."

Going back to 35 years ago, when I got my apprenticeship, the government paid for half my wages. They paid 80 cents of my wages. Maybe that's something we need to look at in order to get more apprentices out there in the trades. It's really frustrating to be in Prince George, an industry town, and we can't get these kids apprenticeships. They're excellent kids. We can get them jobs through career preparation, but we can't get them apprenticeships.

In summary, we'd like you to please explore the unrealistic 100 percent retention and completion accountability requirements for career programs; provide and maintain funding at a realistic level to support alternate students, PEP and SLR students; explore the options available to resolve the career prep, CTC and SSA inequities; and provide and maintain funding that will support career program students in all schools, large and small. With the dropping of the funds, basically what happens…. We can support ourselves, because we're a big program, but a small area like Mackenzie or McBride or a smaller school that didn't have a big program a few years ago…. We're going to lose those schools, or the students will not have a chance to go into career prep.

S. Orr: We've had a lot of good information on career prep and streaming kids off into apprenticeships and how beneficial that would be. The other thing we've heard is that it's not quite so easy with the unions on the other side. We could put them out there, but the unions aren't so keen to allow so many in. We've heard both sides of the coin on this. I'd really like your opinion on that.

N. Fabbro: At that same lumber company there was a problem with the unions allowing the young students to have that opportunity to get into an apprenticeship. I agree with you; that is a big problem. How do we get through that? I think incentives. We need some incentives from business. We can't expect them to bear the full load. Somehow the unions have to buy into the SSA. We have to get the youth in there and get them out working, because guys like me are gone, unfortunately.

I just wanted to ask you about ITAC and your comments about any duplication with what ITAC and some of the other groups do. Do you have any comment about that and your relationship with ITAC?

N. Fabbro: It's been very good. They have helped the schools to a certain extent. I think ITAC could become more involved with the school system. I don't understand the funding of ITAC, but if more funding could be streamlined into the public school system…. I know some is being streamed into CTC, but if it went into the public school system to help those students, I think it would work better. We have ITAC come into the school the odd time but not enough to make an impact on a student that wants to get an apprenticeship. If a student comes into it and wants an apprenticeship as a food server, I can give him certain brochures and stuff, but if ITAC came in and was part of the process to get those students out into the workforce, I think it would have a big impact. They have a

better understanding, or they know people. They maybe have a better knowledge of the whole system. We need more of a hand from them.

R. Stewart: I'm concerned about a bit of confusion over minimum wage and the first-job wage. You're suggesting, perhaps, that we would remove that. We would penalize the student for having done some training, some unpaid organized work experience, by removing the 500 hours he's able to work under the first-job wage.

N. Fabbro: We'd like to see those students be able to use the unpaid work experience and reduce the 500-hour total.

R. Stewart: My concern, though, is that the 500 hours is a benefit, quite frankly, particularly in areas of high unemployment. You seem to be considering it to be a penalty for young people, whereas in fact a young person without a job would probably be very happy, in many cases, to be able to get some training on the job, even at the first-job rate. The job rate was intended to be a benefit. It was intended to help people who didn't have jobs and young people who didn't have jobs, and I'm concerned that we might be trying to put in place a disincentive for them actually entering this program.

N. Fabbro: Let's say a student is at a gas station, and he's on the till or pumping gas. He's there for 200 hours or 120 hours of work experience, and they hire him. He's already got the training for that particular job. Should he work a total of 620 hours before he's paid the $8 per hour, or should he just work 380 more hours to get his $8? What we're asking is just…. Am I missing your point there?

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you very much for your presentation. Enjoy your retirement.

W. McMahon (Chair): We can't really take questions from the floor. Are you presenting later?

A Voice: No. I had a comment regarding how to help students become workers with the union. It's just an idea that came to me.

W. McMahon (Chair): Because we're being recorded by Hansard and it becomes an official record, we can get your name on the list, if you'd like, and then we can hear from you.

We have the local association of teachers in the immersion and francophone programs presenting next, with Nick Prévost, Louise Côté-Madill and Ginette Green. Thanks for coming today, and whenever you're ready, you can start.

N. Prévost: Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs. I must start by saying I welcome the opportunity to speak about the state of the French immersion and francophone programs in Prince George and B.C. I am quite involved in those programs. I'm the parent of a child that's attending an elementary francophone program. I'm also a teacher here in Duchess Park Secondary in the immersion program as well as in the francophone program. I'm on the executive of the provincial specialists association as well as the local specialists association in immersion and francophone programs.

The programs themselves. French immersion is designed to enhance the learning of the other official language in this country through its curriculum. It's accessible to all children. It was initiated over 25 years ago by parents who wanted to play a role in the promotion of national unity and cultural understanding. This program is not mandated by the Ministry of Education but represents a program of choice. Its success led to the establishment of the Cadre program, which became the responsibility of the Conseil Scolaire Francophone, or CSF, in 1999. From then on, the Cadre program was renamed the francophone program.

The francophone program services the needs of students with a francophone background who are wishing to maintain French as their first language. The CSF is a provincewide school district that is sanctioned by the Ministry of Education, and its educational program is aimed at enhancing the full development and the cultural identity of the francophone learners in the province.

Both programs receive federal funding to assist the province in covering the start-up and maintenance costs. Ongoing federal support is received in the form of yearly grants based on enrolment in the programs. The benefits of these programs are numerous. You've heard of them before in Victoria, I know that. They're written on there.

One part that I would like to bring your attention to is right here in Prince George at Duchess Park Secondary, the only secondary school with French immersion and francophone students within it. In that school the immersion and francophone students represent 20 percent of the school population, yet every year these students rake in over 50 percent of all bursaries and scholarships that are made available in that school.

Those students are the academic backbone of this inner-city school. They have superior English skills. The FSA tests show above-average results in all subjects, in all grade levels as well. At Duchess, for example, these students met or exceeded expectations in the FSA tests at the rate of 92 percent for reading, 96 percent for writing and 70 percent in numeracy. Now, this

used to be as high as the others. There are a lot of other benefits for the students that are part of these programs, and some of them are definitely helping the students in finding global work. It is enhancing their willingness to travel and discover other cultures, countries and languages. The success and the importance of these programs are undeniable.

A few facts and issues. In B.C. today there are over 34,000 students enrolled in French immersion through 43 school districts. Here in school district 57, we have 583 students, and the numbers are a bit down from previous years. They have been known to be cyclic, though B.C. has 1,600 students graduating from the French immersion programs every year. We have 46 in Prince George this year that are in line to graduate out of that program. Some 16 percent of British Columbia's teenagers are bilingual. In Prince George we're talking about 2 percent. There's a lot of work to be done here.

The francophone program has over 2,800 students enrolled throughout the province. Prince George has 151 of them. B.C. has about 75 students graduating from the francophone program this year. Eleven of them are attending Duchess Park. The fact that enrolment figures were increasing steadily spoke to the success and popularity of the programs and the commitment of parents and students. The key to building these programs was appropriate funding.

Targeted funding has decreased over a number of years, and the effects of that have stretched the effectiveness of these programs beyond their limits. If you change the immersion program and the francophone program into the likes of any other program, their success will do the same. They'll go down, and the enrolment will also decrease. I believe it would be a shame to lose these outstanding educational programs over a lack of support.

Class size is a much-debated issue lately. The oral and interactive nature of these programs is a determinant factor for those students. In class a smaller group means more interactive time using French for every individual. The CSF has many small classes, but the present funding formula is the same as all other programs. The cost of running a class of 14 students is roughly about the same as a class of 30 students, but the funds received are quite different because they're based on the enrolment of students attending the class.

This unilateral funding formula is a huge issue for the CSF. That school district is based in Richmond. It serves the whole province, with small programs in many regions of the province, yet the extra operational costs associated with all that distance are not considered by provincial funding. An example of this, among many others, is transportation. The CSF in Prince George is getting money for servicing a neighbourhood school, like in many other districts, but in reality they are transporting students from all over the city and surrounding areas. Funding is essential to maintain the level of service that will ensure success for the students enrolled.

I also bring up the fact that of 100 percent contact time in French for instruction, the students in grades 11 and 12 get only 25 percent, so they spend all their time learning French and all that and near the end of their high school they have one class a semester that happens in French.

There is actually, also, a severe shortage of qualified teachers available in the general area of French-speaking instruction in Prince George and all over the province. Because there was apparently no need for it, school districts have not been actively recruiting candidates for years now.

Another point is that teachers outside the lower mainland are suffering from isolation from professional development and teaching resources. There's only one provincial immersion and francophone conference — a Pro-D conference. It's always held down south. It's the only time when French-language editors also get together in one place and expose their teaching resources. These teachers in the regions are getting the same funding as the ones living in Vancouver. You know what it takes to travel to come here; you came here. It doesn't even come close to being enough to cover the cost of attending any of these Pro-D activities that are happening down south.

I have recommendations. First of all, I'd like to ask the government to continue to support the federal-provincial funding agreement and ensure that funding levels be maintained and then increased, if possible.

The government should restore services such as the ones that we allowed before: support for provincial immersion conferences and workshops; bursaries to teachers wishing to upgrade their language skills; the hiring of French-speaking monitors and teacher assistants for the classroom; and the hiring of district French coordinators. We used to have one of those in Prince George but no more for quite a few years now. Those coordinators will help maximize all that money and all that funding. It's not happening. Also, we'd like support for accessing French teaching resources and information. It seems that in any library you go to, the level of French resources for teachers is not there. We've got to go down south.

The ministry should also seriously review their funding policies and formulas, adapting and discerning the needs of school districts, teachers and programs established in the outer regions of this province. The ministry should maintain or lower the ratio of class size. It is highly significant because of the overall and interactive nature of those programs. The ministry should mandate a greater number of courses given in the French language at the senior level as a requirement for the French-immersion Dogwood. That would ensure that students meet the program objectives of functional bilingualism. The ministry must train an appropriate number of fluent French teachers for all areas with the best training and the best in-service possible, on top of facilitating the active recruitment from the school district. There is a shortage of qualified teachers in that area right now.

As a conclusion, B.C. has one of the most successful French-language programs in the country. Teachers, parents, students and everybody pride themselves on that, especially in Prince George. It's continuously suc-

cessful because of the partnership that has always existed among the teachers, the parents, the students and the administrators of all levels. Unfortunately, the cutbacks have stretched those programs to their limit, and symptoms are beginning to show. I know. I'm in the classroom. I see it every day.

We are extremely proud of those students that graduate from our program. We see them as self-assured and successful. Let's never forget what's really at stake here. These students are the ones, truly, who are going to be our leaders of tomorrow.

We have many parents that have all their children in the program. Because of the close contact, these parents become friends. I'd like to introduce one such parent. She has one daughter that has graduated out of the francophone program already. She has one in grade 12 and another daughter in grade 10 this year. Also, I'd like to introduce you to a student who is in grade 12 at Duchess Park right here in Prince George, enrolled in the francophone program. These persons are Louise Côté-Madill and Ginette Green. I'll let them talk to you a little bit.

L. Côté-Madill: Two minutes. One minute each. Maybe I should just go the point directly. I'm the president of the francophone parent committee here in Prince George. We have many concerns. I was one of the five people appointed by the government to create the Conseil Scolaire Francophone. I served two mandates, so I've seen a lot of what happens.

I have a lot of concerns about the budget. I have a list, but I'll just mention a few. One of them is that the francophone program here in Prince George does use public schools, of course — it's a public program — but it pays for it. To me, is it somewhere not double-billing? The public schooling is using it. Another public school uses it and pays. It doesn't seem to be a legitimate expense for the Conseil Scolaire to be paying to use those schools. They are public schools being used by the public system. Of course, the Conseil Scolaire is provincial, so we see that all over B.C.

We don't have a school here in Prince George, per se. We rent facilities. It's a problem, although as Ginette might be talking about later, it can be an advantage as well. For her phys ed she has to go somewhere else than in the school, because there's no more room there. They cannot rent the gymnasium, but they go all over the place. She'll probably be talking about that, because she's quite proud of it.

Also, my three daughters…. One has gone through the programme francophone. It's wonderful, but now — and I don't want to raise the issues that Ginette will be raising as well — where does she go next when she's finished her schooling in French? UNBC has no courses in French, not even language, and it has international studies. I think that's something that should be looked at as well.

I should stop here. I know that Ginette has a few things to say. One of the things that the programme francophone offers for the French community is full-time kindergarten. It is wonderful for our community. Yesterday I was asked by a parent why she should choose the francophone program rather than the immersion program. She's francophone; her husband is not. I'm in that situation. My partner is English and from Prince George, born here — one of the few. It's always an issue: do we go to immersion or francophone? There are many, many benefits for francophone families to have their children in the francophone program. I know that the francophone parents association did submit a document to the standing committee. I've gone through it, and it has a lot of good recommendations. I'll just pass this on to Ginette now.

Ginette Green: Hello. I'm in grade 12, and of course, I have to think about where I'm going to go next year. I'd like to take courses in French, such as math and social studies and what not. Frankly, I can't do that here in B.C. I would have to go to Alberta or to Jonquière, and frankly, prices double if you're going out of town. I'm not exactly a rich person, so I can't afford it. I'm going to probably go to English.

Physical education was so much fun in grade 10. We got to go everywhere. If you didn't like basketball or volleyball or the things that they were offering…. They were pretty much basic. We got to do judo. We got to do scuba diving. It was so much fun, and it broadened our horizons. We're really lucky.

Some people got to do exchanges to Quebec. As I heard it, it was amazing. Their French improved by double. They're just so lucky, because they got to dip themselves into the cultural side of everything there in Quebec that we're not immersed in, in Prince George. We're just lucky to have all those things.

I got to go to infotech in Vancouver because it wasn't offered here in French. It didn't happen last year. It was probably the best thing I ever did. It was excellent. It got me to be with all the people from B.C. who went to see how they're doing. We had some extremely French people there. I don't speak French very often because I don't get to. All I get to do that is in school. I went there, and we all spoke French the entire time. It was excellent. I loved it.

Those are just a few things I got to do that I'd like to have continue to happen. Thank you.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you. We have one quick question from Richard Stewart.

R. Stewart: [The member spoke French.] On behalf of the committee I want to thank you for coming to talk to us. I've got a question related to the distinction between Conseil Scolaire Francophone funding, if you will, and the immersion funding. As I understand it, we have 583 students in immersion at various schools

N. Prévost: Yes. Both of them are. At the secondary level Duchess is hosting immersion and the francophone.

R. Stewart: But the immersion program has different teachers because they're different school districts.

R. Stewart: Is that too complicated? Is there a better way to do that? Let me put it that way.

N. Prévost: When you say there are different teachers, I must stop you. I'm hired by both. I do teach some classes for the immersion program and some classes for the francophone program.

Now, a big difference is where the background is. As I mentioned, the immersion kids or any kids can go there. Their level of French is quite a bit lower. The francophone program also includes a lot more of the cultural thing there.

R. Stewart: I confused you with my question. I'm not concerned about the distinction between the two programs. I believe the two programs are validly distinct. How do we mesh the two, if we can? Is there a structure that would accommodate the two different programs within one school district or within one school a little bit more easily?

N. Prévost: It's being done right now at Duchess. I think things are going well.

L. Côté-Madill: If I may add something here. Conseil Scolaire Francophone has the opportunity to offer some classes that would not be available with school district 57 per se here in Prince George. Take Spanish, for instance. Spanish is offered to the francophone program, and it's not offered to school district 57. Why not maybe combine the two and offer a full class? Right now I believe there are ten students in that class. There could be more. Why not do the same with others? In grade 11 I believe that math is not offered in French, but there are enough students in immersion and the francophone program to offer it. Some of those students are really strong. Some of them go directly to grade 11 and skip some, because we don't have honours in the French program. They will sometimes do calculus before. I think it could definitely be done, especially at the secondary level.

Our next presentation is by the Special Education Association, Sandy Trolian. Welcome, Sandy.

S. Trolian: Thank you for coming up to Prince George to get our views and to listen to people. First off, I'm really impressed that you would do that. I wish I could come bearing wonderful things that we have to say about all the great things the ministry has done for us, but I am the bearer of some concerns and things I'd like to share with you.

I represent the Special Ed Association in Prince George, which is a group of very dedicated people that has been working towards the benefit of students of all needs. I've been here in Prince George since 1988, and I've seen a steady decrease in funding and services that have gone to these students. The quantity and the quality of programs has decreased. I see a lot of students that are being left by the wayside. I see us now teaching towards the mainstream, and that really concerns us. I think we feel devalued as teachers and as students. I think we're being ignored and neglected because of the lack of funding.

I believe, and my colleagues believe as well, that the funding must at least be maintained. It seems like every year we have the same amount of funding with more and more students being identified. Pretty soon the programs just disappear. I think that's what happens with a lot of our learning disabled students in particular. A lot of students become…. In one school we called them "binder programs," where you create this paper program and hand it to the student. They sit in a corner and do it. That's what happens with special education. They're losing contact with trained people like ourselves.

The small instruction group that used to exist is now becoming sometimes as large as ten to 12 students. It's becoming like crisis management, and that's the way we feel. Now, instead of getting together to have professional development activities like we used to in the old days — "Let's learn more about reading or writing strategies" — we're all gathering together and saying: "How are you surviving? How are you managing this?" We feel like we're in a crisis management situation.

I've sort of outlined a few ideas under basic headings. I'm not going to read it to you, because I think you can do that. There's a couple of headings here under access. I was very concerned about the funding. I really believe that we are doing a disservice to a lot of our students who cannot handle regular curriculum. There are not enough modified materials. There's not enough time to serve them.

We also believe that some of these students that are ignored or neglected or that cannot cope with the regular curriculum could become high-risk students in the community. I think if we don't invest money at this end to accommodate their needs, get them trained and get them learning how to become contributing citizens, we're going to pay later on as they become adults. We're losing students out of our elementary schools into the streets, doing various businesses, and that's sad, I think. The way I describe it, a lot of these students are those that have special needs or circumstances. Some students are identified, and some just come from situations that have not been to their benefit as young children. It's not their fault. That's the way they come to school.

I think we as professionals are identifying more and more of these differences and needs in students. We're becoming better at our jobs. That's also harder for you, because we're saying: "Oh, we only had 20 of these students last year. This year we have 50." We're seeing the differences, and we're identifying those kinds of differences. It's also hard to accommodate them with a standard curriculum. We're concerned about the accessibility.

Choice, too. In the choice schools and some of the programs that are being offered, they exclude students. They don't include them. In some cases a school can say: "Well, this is our choice. We take students that can read at this level" — whatever. It excludes a bunch of our students who don't even qualify for those programs. Our fear, again, is that some of the choice schools become exclusive rather than inclusive. We isolate more of those students who can't afford or who don't have the standards expected in some of those programs. That's one of the fears that we have. The choices have to accommodate all levels of our society.

On-line learning. Of course, computers are wonderful tools, but they need staff to show some of these students how to use them and how they can be more effective. You can't just put a kid in front of a computer. A lot of our students would not know what to do. We need more help and more training in that. It's great to have computers and technology, but we do need the staff to help the students as well, the ones who have difficulties.

In our quality of education, I think we have to…. We agree, as the Special Ed Association, that we have to accommodate all student needs. You can't say: "We just accommodate some. We can only afford to accommodate some." I think we have to accommodate all. I think that's our duty as a community, especially as a professional, as my colleagues say.

We did a recent survey about a year and a half ago, something like that. One of the comments on the survey was the type of support that would improve your ability to provide an appropriate program for students with special needs in your school. I took the comments out of the surveys, and I've sort of categorized them. These are some of the areas.

A lack of consultation time is one of the headings. We're expected to serve many student needs, but we don't have any time to talk about it. We don't have any planning time. There's no time for parents to come in. We just have to do it. Jobs have to be done. It's becoming a little more haphazard. It's not as systematic as it used to be in the old days when we had more money and maybe fewer students.

Some teachers commented on a lack of learning resources in general. We do need things that are not at the grade level. We need materials that look more adult than they are, and lower reading levels and that kind of thing to be more available for students.

General lack of support. A lot of the high school teachers mentioned that some of the teaching assistants who help in the shop programs and the home economics programs used to have two or three students at a time. Now they're coming in with maybe six or eight students, which is a total disaster for safety in a shop. A lot of these students who have never been around tools have one adult to supervise them. These are the kinds of things that are coming from our teachers. A lot of our students are no longer getting direct support from a trained professional either. There's just no time to do it, with the paperwork and planning, in the little time that we do have.

Some of our families are finding that they're getting less and less support as well. The home school connection around these students is failing as well. Some of our homes…. We can't solve some of the problems at the school level anyway. It might be something to look at too, more agency involvement in schools where it's a combined, unified effort to deal with these students. I find that as schools we can't handle all of the problems anymore. We just don't have the time. The day isn't long enough. There's not enough staff. We're losing some of our students at a very young level.

Generally, there's a lack of time and various types of time. There are toileting issues at the high school level. Gifted students in some of the gifted programs…. I don't think that some schools even have them. There's no time for the gifted. There are way too many needs. We're taking a lot of time just to try to sort out those kinds of issues and help out the classroom teacher. Later on we see the changes, that the role of the learning assistance or special education teacher has changed over time as well, becoming more administrative.

Because of the lack of time now, some teachers have as many as three or four jobs in one position. They might be a special ed teacher, a librarian, an enrichment teacher and a computer teacher all combined in one effort. It's really hard to focus on this area. In one school of 365 students that year, they had two and a half hours of learning assistance support for classroom teachers. It's just about impossible to do, to be spread that thin.

Sometimes you have combined contracts. Sometimes it's an administrative thing. "Oh, you're only working half-time. You can do two points of learning assistance. We'll just tack it on to your contract." But time-wise, the flexibility's gone. It just doesn't become very efficient with that way of dealing with it.

There are changes in the classroom teachers' rule. Classroom teachers now are becoming…. When they have less and less support from colleagues like myself, they take on the role of trying to accommodate the needs. They're staying late. They're trying to create materials. They're trying to do that one-to-one assistance for these students. While they're doing that, the rest of the class is basically doing the worksheets. They're not getting any really effective instructional time during that time. A lot of the students with the special needs or circumstances or difficulties become disruptive. They have to be dealt with. A lot of our classroom teachers are saying that they're dealing with a lot of those issues without support, so their role has changed over time too. They're lacking more and more support that way.

There has been a change in the integration model, which we have tried. I think it was 1990 when that went in, where we were including all the students into the classroom. Now a lot of teachers are saying: "Look, we can't do it. There's not enough time in a day. The day is way too long. Why don't we go back to the resource-room model?" It seemed to serve their needs better. There's lots of rethinking and general fatigue. Teachers are getting tired. Teachers and special ed teachers are getting stressed.

With the cuts in service, too…. It wasn't just special education students who benefited from the service. Often, if we had service in a classroom, you could add on other students. Well, this student also has difficulty with reading or writing or whatever. You could form a group around that student to deal with all needs at the same time. There are other students being affected by this as well — and by a lack of funding.

That's basically what we have to say. I appreciate that you've given me some time to express some of these needs to you, and I thank you.

I'd like to know: in discussing the models of inclusion and the resource room, do you know how parents feel and what they would want?

S. Trolian: Generally, the parents like the inclusion model. I don't think they're happy right now with the support of it. Inclusion is costly. It's a good investment, but the parents are more supportive of the inclusion. They see the difference in those students being with regular students and that kind of thing.

R. Nijjar: You made a comment about gifted children and said that because of limited resources — and those go to those children with special needs and those with so-called invisibilities — there's less to give to gifted children. We've heard presentations from people who are advocates of gifted children throughout British Columbia. It seems to be a pervasive attitude right across the board, with everyone in British Columbia, that gifted children aren't the same as others that are special needs. Therefore, they always seem to be at the bottom of the pile of resources available. How do you feel about that, as far as the structure is set up, when it comes to treating gifted children as special needs children?

S. Trolian: I don't think their needs are special. Gifted children deserve to have enrichment in our programs. They need to be supported in that. I don't think they should be treated the same, though. It's a different issue. They can cope with the regular curriculum per se — right? On the other side of it, looking at special needs or students with learning difficulties, they cannot cope without service. Gifted students could actually cope without, but I think they deserve the support.

R. Nijjar: We've had many presentations from advocates of gifted children, and they have told us that gifted children suffer greatly under a system where they are asked to participate under the regular teaching in a class. They often end up dropping out, they feel disillusioned, they're socially isolated, and so forth. So they are victimized throughout our public system. In that sense they have special needs. We have a pervasive notion that because they have an extra asset, they really don't need that much help, and they'll manage through the system. But in the end the dropout rate and the suicide rate are well above average.

What is your understanding of that, and from your experience do you find that gifted children actually do suffer a lot in the system?

S. Trolian: I have to say that personally, I haven't worked in an area where I've noticed that. I've never been in a situation where I had gifted students to work with. Basically, our focus in our special ed association is with the disability end. So I'm not that familiar.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thanks so much for coming today and for your presentation.

D. Harper: Good afternoon, Madam Chairperson and committee members. My name is Denise Harper, and I'm the chairperson of the board of trustees of Kamloops-Thompson school district 73. It's indeed my pleasure to have travelled here today to appear before you on behalf of my board and my school district.

During the past two decades in Canada the governance of education has been characterized by turbulence and an overall trend towards centralization, as provincial governments sought to standardize school capital construction, staff salaries, curriculum and education support while providing less flexibility in the application of resources. Much of this initiative has been attributed to the desire to provide greater equity in the delivery of education services in the face of increasing costs.

This direction gathered momentum during the decade just past, when provinces sought to restructure education in their struggle with increasing concerns over provincial deficits. The result was a series of amalgamations across Canada, culminating in the elimination, for a time, of school boards in New Brunswick. That event sharpened debate with respect to board governance in Canada and certainly focused trustees' attention on the issue of local control over education and how to preserve it.

Toward the end of the last decade the issue of the relevance of publicly elected school boards in the context of these trends and the appropriate governance model for public education in our province appeared to enter the next phase. School trustees began to challenge themselves to meet the expectation of the electors and to be accountable and accessible. Student achievement was identified as the highest priority, and the

Wishing to meet the challenges before us with a well-prepared plan, between November of last year and March of this year, the Kamloops-Thompson school board embarked on a long-term planning process. Our quest was to improve accountability and community involvement. Our hope was to develop a strategic and all-encompassing plan.

We began the process of public consultation by sending to each parent and staff member in our district a letter outlining our objective, along with a questionnaire asking for input. From the feedback received, nine strategic categories were identified and nine committees evolved. Each had eight or more members of the community, representing all partner groups and various sections of the community. Each committee was required to frame a response to one of those strategic questions in the form of principles that would guide future decision-making in our district.

As part of the consultation process, between November 2000 and February 2001 each committee held at least one public meeting to gather input. One of those meetings, held by the committee on special education, attracted in excess of 150 parents and grandparents. All committees heard a large number of public presentations. In fact, MLA Gordon Hogg made a presentation to our committee on governance. It was my pleasure to meet him and speak with him at that time.

As you will see from the packages that I have provided you, the committees were education, governance, human resources, race relations, finance and planning, health and safety, aboriginal education, technology and special education. The resulting plan — a copy of which I have included in the package I brought today — is a representation of the recommended principles of the nine committees, which will allow the board to effectively deal with the strategic issues they were assigned. These are not challenges that can be dealt with immediately but will require continuing attention over time. However, by adopting them, the school board has signalled to our community how we intend to meet the challenges head-on.

In confronting these challenges, the board is aware that we must always be cognizant of our fundamental mission, which is improving student achievement and ensuring all students reach their maximum potential. All the principles presented in the report relate directly or indirectly to that mission, and together they produce the culture necessary to achieve that mission.

Our education committee, for example, underlined the principles most important to pursuing student achievement — our mission. Our governance committee emphasized the need for local autonomy in fulfilling that mission and suggested means to encourage support for that concept. The human resources committee told us that we must have a healthy, well-motivated, well-trained and well-supported staff to implement that mission. Our committee on race relations described initiatives to support positive race relations as our population becomes more diverse and to provide the school climate we need to ensure all participants in securing that mission.

The finance and planning committee underlined the critical component of having the financial resources to support our mission. The health and safety committee informed us what we must do to ensure a safe, healthy and secure environment for our students and staff as they implement this mission. Our committee on aboriginal education suggested what we must do to further close the gap between aboriginal students and other students in our schools to better accomplish our mission. Our technology committee outlined alternatives for carrying out our mission in the most current and efficient manner. Finally, our committee on special education advised us concerning what we must do to ensure our most challenged students continue to receive the level of service we have worked so hard to achieve over the years.

Our mission encompasses all students. Some of these principles have time limits that dictate recommendations be presented to the board over the next few months, while others will require more discussion and reflection and will take a longer period of time to implement. In dealing with these principles, the board must determine where it can make changes that are within its control and how it must go about securing the necessary change in those areas that are not within our control. The result of the process must be to fulfil our overall mission, which is working together for quality public education.

Since the completion of this very ambitious process, the Kamloops-Thompson board has begun the process of elimination. Our new policy on educational choice meets the growing demand of our parents for alternative styles of education delivery. I have included a copy of that policy on the yellow paper in your presentation package.

On the issue of choice, in September 2001 we opened our first Montessori school. This was in response to a demand from a group of parents who were determined to open their own private school but were encountering difficulties. We saw the opportunity, and we had the empty classroom space and certainly the expertise. They had the children, and they had the desire. Working together, we successfully met the needs of all parties.

Other examples of choice in our district are the virtual school and the home schoolers, who we encourage to use our libraries, our gymnasiums and even participate in some education programs. Our Career Technical Centre is a huge success, and we're delighted with the cooperative relationship that we enjoy with the University College of the Cariboo. Our French immersion program and our Kamloops Community Living Centre are just a few more of the fine examples of choice and flexibility, where we tailor the program to meet the needs of the learner and the circumstances of the family.

We of school district 73 are very proud of the work we are doing in bringing about improvements and of the success rate of our aboriginal learners. Working

with the first nations education council — which is made up of our seven area bands, the friendship centre, the Métis association and the school district — we have been very successful in narrowing the achievement gap between our first nations and our non–first nations learners. In fact, we are so confident that we can continue to narrow and ultimately eliminate that gap that we have signed an aboriginal education agreement promising we'll do just that. If we fail, there are penalties attached, so we're highly motivated.

The Kamloops-Thompson school board is committed to our goal of student achievement and public accountability. We are confident that as we continue to implement the principles outlined in our long-range plan, we will grow and change to meet the needs of our students in these fast-changing times.

Finally, the birth of a democratic Canada was marked by the development of an accessible and affordable public education system. I believe it is imperative that we work to preserve the system of education that guarantees all children will have the same opportunities to learn and to develop to their fullest potential. I believe this is our greatest challenge in the coming years.

Before I close, I would draw your attention to the final portion of my presentation package, which is a report prepared by our secretary-treasurer, Mr. Jim Sheldon, and which addresses the problems that districts with declining student populations are facing under the current funding allocation system. It proposes amendments to the FAS that would also ensure a more consistent level of funding. With that, I thank you for your time.

W. McMahon (Chair): Thank you, Denise. Do any of you have questions? Thanks very much. It was a great presentation, and thanks for coming. You've travelled quite a distance to get here today.

D. Harper: I have a five-year-old incentive to come to Prince George, so I get to have some grandma hugs tonight.

The next presentation is from the Prince George District Teachers Association, Ellie Grogan and Esther Nelson.

E. Grogan: It's an LSA, a part of the Prince George District Teachers Association.

Good afternoon. My name is Ellie Grogan, and I am the president of the Prince George Primary Teachers Association. Esther Nelson is also with me today, and she will assist me with the question section of the presentation.

The Prince George Primary Teachers Association believes that educational funding must be maintained or increased if we are to provide an equitable education system for the children of British Columbia. Firstly, as primary teachers using the B.C. Ministry of Education primary program as a framework for our teaching, we are concerned with the areas of development of the whole child: aesthetic, artistic, emotional, social, intellectual and physical.

The primary program emphasizes that learning requires the active participation of students, that students learn in a variety of ways, that students learn at a variety of rates and that the learning of young students is both an individual and group process. As it states in the early intervention section of the primary program on page 93, the ministry has also made a commitment to small class sizes in primary so that children may receive the individual attention they need.

We urge the Select Standing Committee on Education to improve the funding for small primary class sizes so that kindergarten-class maximum size is lowered to 18 students and the grade 1 to grade 3 class sizes are lowered to a maximum of 20 students. With these class-size numbers, it's much easier for teachers to enhance the individual student's learning. In many primary classrooms in Prince George the range of attainment is so wide and the children have such different needs that it is often difficult to provide as much individual help for each student as they need.

Secondly, the Prince George Primary Teachers Association is advocating that funds should continue to be targeted for aboriginal students. As the primary program states on page 88, aboriginal children need knowledge and skills for success in the larger Canadian society while still valuing and sustaining their own language and heritage. Establishing communication between the home and the school will support the collaborative approach necessary for mutual understanding and respect. Parents and teachers can work together to benefit aboriginal children. Our local specialist association fully endorses the priority placed on funding our aboriginal students and urges that there continue to be targeted funding specifically for our native students. In our school district of Prince George many of our aboriginal students are benefiting from language development support from our specialist English-as-a-second-dialect teachers.

Thirdly, the Primary Teachers Association also urges the select standing committee to maintain and improve the funding for students with special needs. As the primary program states on page 97, in any classroom there will likely be significant diversity in the students' knowledge, skills and attitudes. The responsibility for accommodating this range ultimately belongs to the classroom teacher. Since students vary in the way they learn and behave, teachers may require specific, systematic strategies and supports for the learners. Teachers are encouraged to collaborate with other professions in and out of their school to meet the needs of all the students in their class.

In the early intervention section of the primary program, on page 93, we read: "The Ministry of Education defines early intervention as 'any planned, sys-

tematic program of services necessary to prevent or minimize the effects of significant learning difficulties for children and their families.'" Clearly, it is essential that we continue to improve our funding for special needs students in all their years of schooling so that they receive the support of learning assistance and teachers of students with special needs.

In summary, the Prince George Primary Teachers Association would like to be another voice advocating that education funding be increased to lower primary class sizes. We would also like to urge that aboriginal students continue to be targeted for special funding. We would also like to ask that special needs students be supported with an increased level of support for learning assistance and for teachers of students with special needs.

Esther and I will do our best to answer all your questions. We thank the select standing committee for hearing our presentation.

T. Christensen: Can each of you or one of you comment briefly on what's happening in identifying in kindergarten kids that really require some extra help? Kids coming into kindergarten are all at different levels depending on what their parents have done up to that point and whether they've been in preschool. What can we do to help out at that very early level?

E. Grogan: In the past what was done varied from school to school. Some students were tested, and some were not. It depended on the school. In our district now we have an excellent balanced literacy program that's been introduced and developed by one of our administrators. At the moment there's a pilot program in several schools, following a model that's in North Vancouver, for identifying in kindergarten children who may be at risk. I believe it's at a pilot project level at the moment in a few schools. Hopefully, it's going to be expanded into the whole district. That's what I've heard at the literacy network meetings.

Our next presentation is by the board of school trustees, school district 57. We have Bev Christensen, Barb Hall and Patricia Wick Thibault. Welcome, and please start.

B. Christie: Madam Chair and members of the select standing committee, it is a privilege to be here representing school district 57 and the board of trustees. My name is Bill Christie. I'm the chair of the board. To my immediate right is Bev Christensen, vice-chair; trustee Barb Hall; trustee Patricia Wick Thibault. In the gallery we have trustees Michelle Marrelli, Fred McLeod and Lyn Hall. So we have our entire board here today.

We'd like to thank you for the opportunity to make the presentation, as I said, and to make our brief. What I'd like to ask you to do is turn to page 1 of your brief. You'll see a map of the province outlining the Prince George area in conjunction with the other districts surrounding it. School district 57 encompasses close to 52,000 square kilometres. Its boundaries are congruent with those of the regional district of Fraser–Fort George, and included in the district are the communities of Prince George, Mackenzie, McBride, Valemount and Hixon and all of the communities and settlements in between. It is the second-largest school district in the province in geographical size.

The district student population in 2000 was 19,398. The district has seen a slow, moderate decline in enrolment over the last several years. We expect that trend to become more pronounced in the very near future. The district employs about 2,515 people, including casual employees, making it one of the largest employers outside of the lower mainland. The district operates 50 elementary schools, one middle school and 11 secondary schools. These range in size from Bear Lake Elementary with 25 students to Prince George Secondary School, which enrols 1,600.

Schools are administered on a decentralized model. The administrators are responsible for all facets of their schools' operation, including staffing, programming and facilities. This district also has an excellent working relationship and partnership with the College of New Caledonia and the University of Northern British Columbia.

I'd like to just refer you now to the back of your booklet to appendix A, exhibit 2, which is also a map of this area showing our school district. You will hear from one of the other trustees, in the presentation on funding, that we are funded as a large urban district, when in effect, we are a large urban district but also very rural. You can tell by this map that we are rural as well, so we have some anomalies that need to be addressed as far as adequate funding for this district is concerned.

The presentation is divided into two sections. We have outlined for you the beliefs and value statements adopted by our board, and those statements have guided our decision-making in school district 57. We believe they are worthy of consideration in evaluating the matters before the select standing committee. In the second section we present nine issues of concern in the school district. Some of these are issues shared by other districts throughout the north. There are two brief appendices as well.

The task before this committee is a formidable one, as you seek answers to issues of access, choice, flexibility, quality, post-secondary education and on-line learning. As a large, northern, sparsely populated district, this presents many problems and challenges that are germane to the work of your committee. For that reason, this district would be pleased to work with the committee and other districts in this region toward seeking solutions to common issues.

We have divided the presentation amongst the other three trustees who are present with me at the table, starting with trustee Bev Christensen. She will deal with northern issues and then pass the microphone on to the other trustees. We will not be going in the order of your booklet particularly, so you can't just read your booklet. We will be going back and forth. We would gladly accept questions at the end of our presentation.

B. Christensen: Thank you. My purpose is to speak to you first about northern issues. As you've heard, this is a very large geographic district. We cover a lot of the province of B.C. Prince George is also the northern capital of the province, and we're proud of that. I mean that as a large district, we not only have a large student population, but we have a large geographic area to serve. We share problems not only with other large districts in the province but also with those challenges that face smaller, remote, rural communities. We have a dual set of challenges to meet.

One of these challenges is the unrealistic walk limits. I want to paint a picture for you, because this is how my children went to school. When the temperatures in this part of the country plummet to 0 Celsius or below, the children in school district 57 are on their way to school or on their way home. Snow banks are piled high at the sides of the roads and at the medians and even higher at the corners. Often, where these children must walk there are no street lights or sidewalks. The children must walk on the roadways, which are narrower than usual because of the snow plowing, or worse yet, there has been no snow plow and they are walking in the ruts made by the vehicles that have already passed. Those roads are often icy and very slippery for pedestrians and even more slippery for the logging trucks, transportation trucks and other vehicles that share the road with them. We ask our children to walk long distances in those conditions in the dark. Remember that in this part of the province, as you've probably noticed since you've been here, it starts getting dark at about the time the children leave school to go home, and it's dark when they leave home in the morning to go to school.

The parents of these children, and the trustees, too, worry about those children out there walking to and from school in those conditions. I can tell you that the parents remind us frequently that we of the north need walk limits that are more appropriate to northern conditions. This is becoming of increasing concern to northern parents. I'm here to remind you that northern children face unusual safety risks on their way to and from school that are not faced by children who live in warmer, milder climates.

The geographic size of this district is a second factor of northern concern that I want to talk to you about. As you heard earlier, our district is actually an amalgamation of three districts, including Mackenzie to the north and the Robson Valley to the southeast. Therefore, our staffs must travel to Valemount, 300 kilometres to the southeast, and to Mackenzie, 195 kilometres to the north — a total of 495 kilometres — to provide services to the schools in small rural communities along the route.

These schools are more expensive to staff, and programming can be a big challenge. Because of the great distances between some of these schools, they cannot share staff and facilities. Delivering education and maintenance services and educational support to the staff is time-consuming and costly, again because of the great distance and the often icy, challenging roads over which they must travel. The problem we face is that the Prince George school district is funded as an urban district when, in fact, we are an amalgamation of one urban district and two rural districts. We should be funded to recognize the additional costs of providing education services to those two rural school districts that are some distance from Prince George.

The final northern issue I want to talk to you about is the difficulty we face and, I imagine, other northern districts face, in finding people to work in many categories, especially those in the specialty areas: senior math and science teachers, technology teachers, special education teachers and speech pathologists. For example, we have been conducting a long recruitment campaign for speech pathologists as far away as Australia and Britain without any success. We urge you to encourage the Minister of Advanced Education to provide more training opportunities for the preparing of people for these educational specialties throughout B.C. and especially in the north.

Now I will introduce you to Trustee Barb Hall, who is going to speak to you about the provincial learning network and on-line learning.

As many of you may know, the provincial learning network was established in 1998 with the goal of having all students in the province connected to the Internet, and I commend the province for such foresight. Learning resource money is now held back every year from each district by the ministry to supply this service, but districts have very little choice in how this money is spent.

PLN upgraded 57 of our urban schools with Telus high-speed Internet access last spring but did not extend the service to nine of our rural schools and our brand-new middle school, Heather Park Middle School. One of our most outstanding schools is now being penalized because it was not yet on the PLN's list. I guarantee you that other new schools in the province are also putting up with old technology because they didn't appear on the list.

To add fuel to the fire, we have been informed by PLN that our district cannot go to local providers and look for better access for our rural schools, as all districts must be controlled by the provincial education service. Thus, our rural students suffer from a provincial body's budgetary decisions and a partnership with Telus that does not, and probably will not, upgrade their infrastructure in areas of very low population. This has created inequity of access to learning re-

sources via the Internet for our students in the Robson Valley, in Bear Lake and McLeod Lake to the north, in Beverly to the west and in Hixon to the south — the outer edges of our district. The very students who need electronic communication with pen pals around the world and visits to virtual classrooms the most are being penalized. These are the same students that have very few resources available in their communities.

Let me give you a quick illustration of the problem. The rural schools are equipped with 56K lines, while our urban schools have 1,500K lines. To download a piece of information on a 56K line would take about two minutes if you weren't kicked off, in contrast to five seconds on the 1,500K line. The slow-speed connection makes it quite impractical for rural students to take part in a climb to Mount Everest or use a virtual encyclopedia that their city counterparts enjoy.

There are ways of solving the problem. Satellite technology is available to create wireless connections to the Internet, and all we ask is: give us the money back that's been held back by PLN, and let us have the autonomy to use the existing funding to provide local solutions to securing high-speed connections for all of our students.

I want to continue on with page 9, because this leads into our next issue: the delivery of educational programs on line. Schools in the Robson Valley have secured funding from their regional district to purchase video conferencing equipment to electronically connect their schools to each other and out to the world. Of course, they need the high-speed connection to make this exciting dream come true. Dunster Fine Arts School — and you're going to hear a lot about choices in our district in a short while — could exchange paintings with students from Japan and talk in real time to pen pals in New Zealand if they had this technology. Small schools in Valemount and McBride, with populations under 200, could offer senior courses like physics 12 on line. A logger in the bush could work towards his grade 12 Dogwood by subscribing to that same physics 12 course on line through our continuing education or regional district's learning centres if we had these high-speed connections in place in remote areas.

Another problem associated with the delivery of educational programs on line is the cap placed on districts by the ministry. It's time for the ministry to remove caps placed on the number of students serviced electronically by a district or a regional correspondence school. We should not be limiting access to education when modern technology is not confined to geographical boundaries. Students in rural areas should be able to enjoy the same learning opportunities as in urban centres. However, electronic learning must also be of equal quality to teaching in the classroom, with the same accountability measures and learning outcomes as any other British Columbia curriculum. Internet courses must measure up to the same high standards as any other public education course, so students working on line have the same set of skills to bring to post-secondary training. Thus, more money needs to be allocated for curriculum development of quality on-line programs.

P. Wick Thibault: Thank you, Trustee Hall. School district 57 is pleased to see the Ministry of Education's commitment to supporting choice within the public education system. We feel our district has been very responsive and supportive of parents' desire for choice options for students' education. In addition to the array of adult programs and school and community alternative programs, we have two traditional schools, a fine arts elementary school, a Montessori elementary program and a healthy K-to-12 French immersion program. We also share space with the Cadre program, which is school district 93, in elementary and secondary environments. Some of the choice options are housed in the entire school, while other options such as French immersion exist in this district in a dual-track model.

This year it is a focus of the board of trustees — and we've listed it as one our goals in our directions document — to increase choice opportunities within the community. We have developed a well-defined process that we feel serves us well. We'd be happy to share that with yourselves and other districts. There are, however, issues we face in providing that choice within our community. There are startup costs associated with modifying or adapting a building to introduce a choice initiative. This is true whether in the joint facility model or whether the choice is being offered in the entire building. There are challenges in providing for special resources to support the choice initiative, such as a music or a fine arts focus. The largest issue in providing choice is transportation. If we truly want educational choice to be equally accessible to all students, then travel support is essential. Allowing cross-boundary students to qualify for school bus transportation is one solution. Providing public transit passes or transportation allowances is another.

We believe that in providing flexibility and choice in an era of declining enrolment, converting or running dual-track programs in schools with reduced enrolment will help some of those schools remain viable and open to serve their neighbourhood — that may otherwise have been closed, resulting in students being bused to neighbourhood schools.

B. Christensen: The next topic I want to speak to you about can be found on page 7 of our book. It's aboriginal education. Prince George has the largest aboriginal student population of any school district in B.C. We're proud of our record of providing a collaborative service that draws on the wisdom and knowledge of aboriginal culture to be found in their elders and leaders. We are constantly seeking to improve the education programs we provide to these people.

Within our organizational structure we have an aboriginal education board that plays a key role in setting priorities for spending targeted funding for these

students by identifying the additional programs and supports they require and by doing whatever they can, whatever they feel is necessary, to ensure that these students have the best possible chance of succeeding.

Although our efforts have improved the performance of aboriginal students in this district, particularly in the increased number of aboriginal students who are now graduating from our secondary schools, much work remains to be done. Our goal is to see aboriginal students achieving at a rate equal to all the other students in our school district. Therefore, we urge the committee to acknowledge the important work that the targeted funds enable us to do to assist these aboriginal students in assuming their rightful place in our society. Maintain the targeted funding for these students until their academic achievement grade is equal to the district or provincial average. Also, ensure the aboriginal programs are monitored annually to confirm that they are achieving improved results.

B. Hall: I'd like you to turn to page 9. Another issue we'd like to address, efficient transportation, also centres around the rural nature of our district. In our district 4,400 students ride on the bus every day. This makes up almost one-third of our total school population. We contract out busing rather than owning our own fleet and thus have one of the lowest costs per kilometre in the province. I refer you to appendix B, which is at the very end of the presentation booklet, and the graph that's on the very last page.

In 1997 this board made a presentation to the Ministry of Education finance and facilities advisory committee, and this is part of that presentation. You'll notice that this graph compares our district to districts of similar size throughout the province. You'll notice that our costing per student is much lower. Are we rewarded for this efficiency initiative? No. Because of the historical funding formula used by the ministry, we're given the same amount as we used in the previous year. Hence, there's no incentive to save money. We are actually being punished for being efficient.

Similarly, we have embarked on an energy conservation program through the provincial green buildings initiative. In a few short years we will not only lower our energy bills — which, as you can guess, are extremely high in the northern climate — but save on capital expenditures to replace ailing heating equipment. Why not reward districts for looking at such budgetary savings in maintenance, transportation and other services not by clawing back the money into general government coffers but by making the savings available to that district that was fiscally responsible — thus helping them put the money to work at developing new and better educational programs?

P. Wick Thibault: I'd like to speak a little bit about the social equity issues. One-third of schools in school district 57 provide school meal programs to 1,000 students at a minimum, 184 days a year, who would otherwise come to school hungry. School meal programs and inner-city funding total approximately $765,000 per year in this district. School district 57 and the Ministry of Children and Family Development work closely together to meet the needs of children in our community.

Since 1993 our district has identified and receives funding for four community schools. These four schools house our most diverse socioeconomic student populations and the challenges that go with that. Each school receives $75,000 per year to support programs. The dollars come to our district via trusted accounts and are directed to those schools. All of those funds are used directly to support programs to children and to the community. Community school funding provides support to children not only with programs throughout the school year, but it provides for the opportunity for neighbourhood programs throughout the summer months and the sessional breaks. These programs provide children with a safe and nurturing environment.

Examples of some of these programs are early literacy programs; English-as-a-second-language parent–children reading programs; after-school programs; programs that teach life skills to our children; counselling for youth experiencing behavioral or academic difficulties; and a clothing exchange program, so the children who come to school in minus 40 degrees without a winter jacket or a hat or mittens have access to those basic items, which perhaps their families cannot provide.

Because of the success of these programs and the length of time that they have been operating in our district, they have become an integral part of and support to our education programs. We're asking the select standing committee to carry a strong message of support back to government and to the Ministry of Children and Family Development for these programs and for this funding. If we are truly going to endorse and maintain a community approach to meeting the needs of our most vulnerable children, it is essential to maintain the multi-agency involvement. We believe that this funding and these programs mean the difference between success and failure for some of our most vulnerable students.

B. Christensen: Finally, I'm going to speak to you about special education. As is the case with all the school districts in the province, our district works hard to provide high-quality support to these students within the limited budgets we are given to provide this service. We have developed many in-district ways of providing this support and being as efficient as possible. You'll find those outlined on page 5, right under the "Special Education" heading.

However, despite our efforts to create efficient ways of providing service to these children, this district, as is the case with most large school districts in the province, consistently overspends its special education budget. Worse yet, despite the overspending and our efficiency efforts, our staff — as you heard earlier in at least one presentation that I heard — is stretched to the limit to meet the needs of these students, and

We think there is at least one identifiable reason for this problem in northern B.C. It is the prevalence of infants born here with fetal alcohol syndrome or fetal alcohol effect. In Prince George there is a very active group, the Prince George FAS Community Collaborative Network, who are working very hard to prevent this type of alcohol-related damage to unborn children. They have provided us with some statistics — you'll find them at the bottom of page 5 — which back up our comments on this issue.

When I read these, I was particularly struck by the bottom section of that, where they have found that 95 percent of these children will, at some time in their life, have mental illness; 68 percent will have a disrupted school experience; 68 percent will experience trouble with the law; 55 percent will be confined in prison, drug or alcohol treatment centres or mental institutions; 82 percent will not be able to live independently; and 70 percent will have difficulty with employment. Obviously, these young people are very challenged, and despite the network's efforts to reduce the incidents of FAS and FAE in our region, there continue to be large numbers of these children entering the public education system every year whose learning ability has been harmed before they were born.

We believe the number of FAS and FAE children is larger in northern school districts than in southern school districts. In fact, we believe the incidence of FAS and FAE in northern B.C. is comparable to the large number of students receiving English-as-a-second-language training in B.C. Many of these students are concentrated in the southern part of the province, more so than in the north. There are important differences. English-as-a-second-language instruction is recognized as a targeted funding category, and FAS and FAE are not.

We ask your committee to help us meet the needs of these very challenged students in four ways. Maintain and expand the current system of identifying and providing programming for exceptional students to include more FAS and FAE students. Raise the current 4 percent cap on funding for exceptional students in the high-incidence, low-cost category to more adequately reflect the number of these students in our system. Ensure that the funding for low-incidence, high-cost students continues on a non-capped basis to ensure the funding accurately reflects the needs of the district. It concerns us that the ministry may move to providing funding for this high-cost category of students on a student population basis. Finally, we urge you to continue to identify students requiring expensive special education services in an orderly and defensible manner. Only in that way can we work with you to ensure that the investment we make in these students is as effective as possible.

P. Wick Thibault: On page 10 in the document that we've prepared, Pre-kindergarten to post-secondary education, school district 57 has a strong commitment to lifelong learning. We recognize that the preschool and early primary years are crucial to the development of our children. With this in mind, we've placed special emphasis on early intervention, literacy and numeracy. We are also exploring kindergarten readiness research to assist us in the planning process to ensure student success. At the same time we recognize some curriculum challenges for students at the secondary level and are placing emphasis on secondary mathematics and study-skill development.

We have opportunities for meetings between teachers of school district 57, instructors at the College of New Caledonia and professors from the University of Northern British Columbia that allow opportunities for networking, identifying and addressing weaknesses and transitional issues, and sharing expertise and instructional strategies. School district 57 is very proud of the close relationship we share with our post-secondary educational partners.

School district 57 and the College of New Caledonia have an extremely successful partnership through our career tech centre. This program allows students to earn post-secondary credit while pursuing practical, hands-on learning in their chosen field and at the same time fulfilling graduation requirements.

The University of Northern British Columbia supports our top academic-achieving grade 11 students by providing the opportunity to experience university through offering free tuition for one course of their choosing in their grade 12 year. The top achieving grade 12 student from each school within the university's boundaries, if they choose to attend the University of Northern British Columbia, receives tuition paid for by the university for four years — in essence, a free undergraduate degree. That is a huge commitment by the university to students of the north.

UNBC is well along in its application to begin a teacher-training program. School district 57 strongly supports this application. When approved, it will provide a ready career path for students in our area to choose without leaving the north. It will also assist districts throughout the north as we face an impending shortage of teachers.

The approval of the program is especially pressing because of the likely loss of locally based training through the closure of the Simon Fraser University teacher ed program in December of next year. Assuming a best-case scenario of approval this winter for the UNBC program, we will still be without local graduates in education from December 2002 to at least September 2004. That's the best-case scenario. Any further delay will have a negative impact on northern districts. There is strong evidence that those educated in the north stay in the north.

We urge the select standing committee to support the application by the University of Northern British Columbia to establish a much-needed program in the north to provide local students with choice in post-secondary education and to provide the north with

local graduates to fulfil the recruiting and retention issues that we will soon be facing.

Now just a few words in summary. As you can see, we've tried very hard to not always plead for more money but to make suggestions where school board autonomy and flexibility could address local northern issues more effectively and efficiently.

We hope that you will urge the Ministry of Education to keep their promise of a three-year block funding so that we can do more long-term planning and, thus, help us give our kids a better opportunity to receive a quality education in the north.

the time you've expended on our behalf this afternoon, and we wish you well in your future deliberations. If you have any questions that you'd like to ask us at this time, even though time is short, we'd be very happy to field them.

W. McMahon (Chair): A very thorough presentation, and we thank you for that. Unfortunately, because of our time we're going to have say thanks. We really appreciate what you've given us.

B. Christie: Once you've had an opportunity to peruse the brief, you can feel free to contact us if you have questions.

Chair:	* Wendy McMahon (Columbia River–Revelstoke L)
Deputy Chair:	Reni Masi (Delta North L)
Members:	* Elayne Brenzinger (Surrey-Whalley L) * Tom Christensen (Okanagan-Vernon L) * Richard Lee (Burnaby North L) * Brenda Locke (Surrey–Green Timbers L) * Karn Manhas (Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain L) * Sheila Orr (Victoria-Hillside L) * Rob Nijjar (Vancouver-Kingsway L) * Richard Stewart (Coquitlam-Maillardville L) Jenny Kwan (Vancouver–Mount Pleasant NDP) * denotes member present



CONTENTS

		Page

Presentations		643
	M. Krause	643
	D. McLeod	644
	P. Seens	645
	C. Wishart	646
	C. Jago	646
	A. Downing	648
	L. Anderson	649
	T. Livingstone	650
	C. deGans	650
	T. Williams	650
	B. Hosker	653
	K. Ponsford	655
	R. Warwick	657
	L. Scott	659
	T. James	662
	B. Malchow	664
	G. Milne	666
	B. Abbs	669
	R. Thorn	671
	A. Sculley	674
	P. Ceretti	675
	G. Davison	676
	S. Davie	678
	Gerrie Green	680
	T. Noukas	681
	A. McFayden	682
	K. Hughes	684
	B. Brooks	687
	K. Stahl	688
	N. Fabbro	689
	N. Prévost	691
	L. Côté-Madill	693
	Ginette Green	693
	S. Trolian	694
	D. Harper	696
	E. Grogan	698
	B. Christie	699
	B. Christensen	700
	B. Hall	700
	P. Wick Thibault	701

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS (Hansard)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE
ON EDUCATION