Children and Youth — Issue No. 25 — Tuesday, May 1, 2012 (HTML)

Present: Joan McIntyre, MLA (Chair); Claire Trevena, MLA (Deputy Chair); Mable Elmore, MLA; Gordon Hogg, MLA; Douglas Horne, MLA; Leonard Krog, MLA; Kevin Krueger, MLA; Richard T. Lee, MLA; Nicholas Simons, MLA; Dr. Moira Stilwell, MLA

2. Resolved, that the Committee meet in-camera to consider a request from the Representative for Children and Youth for the referral of an investigation of a child death. (Douglas Horne, MLA)

5. Resolved, that pursuant to section 12 (2) of the Representative for Children and Youth Act, that the Committee refer to the Representative for investigation the death of a child identified as “ADW” who died in 2000. (Claire Trevena, MLA)

6. Resolved, that the Committee meet in-camera to consider its draft report to the House. (Kevin Krueger, MLA)

9. Resolved, that the Committee approve and adopt the draft report as amended today, and further, that the Chair and Deputy Chair work with the Clerk to finalize any minor editorial changes on behalf of the Committee and that the Chair present the report to the Legislative Assembly at the earliest available opportunity. (Claire Trevena, MLA)

10. Resolved, that the Committee meet in-camera to consider the performance measures. (Kevin Krueger, MLA)

13. Resolved, that the Committee request that the Office of the Representative for Children and Youth and staff meet and discuss the preparation of performance measures with the Office of the Auditor General and further that these discussions incorporate the input of the Child Welfare League of Canada as appropriate, and further that the Representative for Children and Youth report back to this Committee at the earliest opportunity. (Leonard Krog, MLA)

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.
The printed version remains the official version.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON
CHILDREN AND YOUTH


CONTENTS
Page
Request for Child Death Referral	399
Committee Report to the House	400
Office of the Representative for Children and Youth: Preliminary Performance Measures Review	401
Other Business	401

J. McIntyre (Chair): Good morning, everyone. I'm pleased to bring our Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth to order this morning.

Before you is an agenda. We have one new item, although it was circulated on the agenda yesterday, that we will do in our normal fashion. It is a request for a child death referral which came from the representative. Then we'd like to go in camera for the consideration and, hopefully, the adoption of our report on the statutory review of the representative's act. Also, we hope to spend some time on consideration of the performance measures that were brought to us in our last meeting from the representative's office. Both of those we want to do in camera.

J. McIntyre (Chair): With that, let us move to item 1, which is the request for a child death referral. The representative's office approached me through the Clerk's office, asking for a referral, which has been the pattern for incidents that happened prior to the representative getting her full mandate in '06 to be able to decide where to do her investigations. In the past we have, I guess, approved those requests in those transition years that are any time before about 2006.

We as a committee have not done that, because most of those investigations were all done and complete, and the representative has been moving forward. There was something…. I'm sorry. I have to be very oblique here. There was a case that has come to light recently that involved a death in the year 2000, and the representative is interested at least in doing the preliminary — what they do before they decide to go on to an investigation — case file review. She asked that she be allowed to do that.

She can't investigate while things are before the court, but she asked: could they get the files to look at them? That was consistent with other past requests, so Claire and I, as your subcommittee, did want to meet with her, face to face. We did have that meeting last week. Both the Deputy Chair and I agreed that there were sufficient grounds from the very confidential details of the case to justify giving that referral to her. Of course, we wanted to make sure that you were comfortable with it as a committee.

If, in fact, you want to know more of the details, we'll have to call the representative here and go in camera to have any discussion of those details. It's a matter of whether you're satisfied with Claire's and my judgment that the rep should proceed or whether or not you'd like a further discussion about it in camera.

N. Simons: Well, I won't take a contrarian view, but I do wonder what criteria you used to come to the point of agreeing. Clearly, there have been a number of child deaths that were never reviewed in the past — I know of some — that I think warrant further investigation. I'm just wondering. Was there something particular? Was it the recency of it? How do we know that there are certain criteria that the representative is using to choose which cases to review at this point?

I wonder what convinced you and what would have not convinced you. Would you have just agreed anyway? My question is sort of….

J. McIntyre (Chair): That's a very good question. To be candid, there isn't a set. I don't think the rep herself probably has a set, or it's not been revealed to us — a very clear, concrete set of criteria. To be candid, Claire and I haven't sat down and set criteria.

I think really, because the representative…. After 2006 it's up to them to do the case file reviews and decide which to investigate. We are basically just authorizing a decision that she is free to make now about any case following 2006.

Again, my problem is that I can't go into the details. She gave us, I guess, sufficient rationale, but it would be anecdotal — a one-off, in a sense, because it was a very unusual, sort of severe case. Claire, I don't know if you want to add to this, but I think it's fair to say that there isn't a set. There isn't set criteria. But she, just like today, felt that the case was significant enough and atypical. Maybe we'll say atypical enough circumstances. Maybe that's the criteria.

It was quite a different set of circumstances than we typically find. She felt, for those reasons alone, that it bore further investigation. She hasn't decided whether to investigate, but she at least wanted to review it.

D. Horne: Chair, perhaps we should go into camera so we can talk a little bit more freely.

J. McIntyre (Chair): Okay. That's fine. Do all agree? We could go in camera and then come out of camera. I just wanted your approval on the record. But that's fine, if you'd like to discuss more in camera.

J. McIntyre (Chair): Now that we're back on the record, following that discussion, I'd like to ask Claire to make a motion for the referral.

C. Trevena (Deputy Chair): I move: that pursuant to subsection 12(2) of the Representative for Children and Youth Act, the committee refer to the representative for investigation the death of a child identified as A.D.W., who died in 2000.

J. McIntyre (Chair): Now I'd like a motion to go in camera for items 2 and 3 of our agenda, please.

J. McIntyre (Chair): We're now on the public record, having had our final discussion on the statutory review report.

C. Trevena (Deputy Chair): I move: that the committee approve and adopt the draft report as amended today. I also move that the Chair and Deputy Chair work with the Clerk to finalize any minor editorial changes on behalf of the full committee. I further move that the Chair present the report to the Legislative Assembly at the earliest available opportunity.

J. McIntyre (Chair): Because the Deputy Chair and I both believe that there are discussions that we want to have very…. We received recommendations from Jeremy Berland from the representative's office. I think that there's work still to be done.

There were discussions, and I think we felt that given the success of the roll-up-your-sleeves, in-camera work we did on the report, the same thing…. It's the same sensitivity, because the rep has come to us with measures that we didn't support and agree…. We've asked them to strengthen those measures, and then there was discussion.

There was no unanimity and no real acceptance of what was presented to us on the public record when the rep was here at our last meeting. Both the Deputy Chair and I felt it was a working session that would best be handled in camera.

We will eventually move to put our recommendations on the record. We want it on the record.

G. Hogg: It's just that the normal test for dealing with things in camera are personnel, or personnel is one test. If you're suggesting that we're going to be doing an evaluation within the frame of that, then I understand why you're recommending it. These would stand independent of the representative. and it's not a legal issue. There's not a fiduciary responsibility. I'm not sure that it's personnel.

J. McIntyre (Chair): There's a legal responsibility, though, in the terms of reference and in her legislation, that she provides us with a service report that has measurable outcomes as performance measures.

We as a committee have publicly said that we have not accepted what she submitted in her service plan. Now that we've asked the representative's office to rethink and come back, they've come back with something that we have not fully accepted.

To be candid, I think we felt that this committee now has to engage in some of their work. I'd say that is sensitive, and it does have to do with the performance of the office.

L. Krog: We only have one child and youth representative. Obviously, any discussion of performance measures, I think, is just too intricately tied up with the issue of her and her performance. I think, therefore, it warrants being discussed in camera, in the circumstances. I don't think you can have a useful or meaningful discussion of performance measures involving the office when we only have one occupant.

Office of the Representative
for Children and Youth:
Preliminary Performance Measures
Review

J. McIntyre (Chair): Now we're on the public record, and I'd like Leonard to proceed with his motion.

L. Krog: I move: that this committee ask the child and youth representative and members of her staff, as required, to meet as soon as is practicable with the Auditor General and appropriate members of his staff with a view to reviewing the existing performance measures that have been prepared in draft form by this committee, that the child and youth representative provide a draft set of performance measures arising from those discussions to this committee as soon as possible and that we meet with her thereafter and her staff in order to prepare an appropriate set of performance measures for the Office of the Representative for Children and Youth.

G. Hogg: Could I ask that there, perhaps, be a friendly amendment that would include discussion with the Child Welfare League of Canada to look at qualitative or other appropriate resources to add to that?

C. Trevena (Deputy Chair): I just had a second amendment to it. I wanted to pull out the reference to our draft recommendations. I think it should be that they should talk without the parameters of those notes that Joan and I have put together. I think it should be a more unrestricted conversation.

J. McIntyre (Chair): Yes, so Kate's just going to help refine. We've had two friendly suggestions, amendments.

L. Krog: With the input of my colleagues — and certainly my consent, it being a friendly amendment — and the helpful assistance of the Clerk, I would move the following motion.

I move: that the committee request that the office of the child and youth representative and staff meet and discuss preparation of performance measures with the Office of the Auditor General, and further that these discussions incorporate the input of the Child Welfare League of Canada, as appropriate, and further that the Representative for Children and Youth report back to this committee at the earliest opportunity.

J. McIntyre (Chair): Thank you very much. My thanks to the whole committee for the work. We've accomplished three major things today — at least, got into the subject matter in depth.

J. McIntyre (Chair): I would like a motion to adjourn, but just before we do that, I do want to mention that we have called another meeting for May 29. The Clerk has sent out the notice. We'll be reviewing two reports of the representative's office. I urge you to do the background reading and come prepared.

J. McIntyre (Chair): With that, unless there is any other business — quickly, as the bells are ringing — could I have a motion to adjourn?

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Chair:	* Joan McIntyre (West Vancouver–Sea to Sky BC Liberal)
Deputy Chair:	* Claire Trevena (North Island NDP)
Members:	* Mable Elmore (Vancouver-Kensington NDP)
	* Gordon Hogg (Surrey–White Rock BC Liberal)
	* Douglas Horne (Coquitlam–Burke Mountain BC Liberal)
	* Leonard Krog (Nanaimo NDP)
	* Kevin Krueger (Kamloops–South Thompson BC Liberal)
	* Richard T. Lee (Burnaby North BC Liberal)
	* Nicholas Simons (Powell River–Sunshine Coast NDP)
	* Dr. Moira Stilwell (Vancouver-Langara BC Liberal)
	* denotes member present
Clerk:	Kate Ryan-Lloyd
Committee Staff:	Byron Plant (Committee Research Analyst)

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS (Hansard)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON CHILDREN AND YOUTH

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON
CHILDREN AND YOUTH