2008 Legislative
Session: Fourth Session, 38th Parliament
HANSARD BLUES
This is a DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY of debate in one sitting of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. This transcript is subject to corrections, and will be replaced by the final, official Hansard report. Use of this transcript, other than in the legislative precinct, is not protected by parliamentary privilege, and public attribution of any of the debate as transcribed here could entail legal liability.
(Blues)
HANSARD BLUES DRAFT TRANSCRIPT
THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2008
The House met at 10:02 a.m. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[Mr. Speaker in the chair.] [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Prayers. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
D. Cubberley: Today is World Kidney Day. Here at the Legislature, members of the B.C. branch of the Kidney Foundation of Canada are holding a clinic between ten and two o'clock in the reception hall. They'll be raising awareness of chronic kidney disease, taking blood pressure readings of members of the Legislature — who can drop in at any time and have this done, as can staff — and raising awareness of threats to the kidney in our food environment. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It's my honour to serve as host for the event in the Legislature and to participate in creating an opportunity for all of us to learn more about the kidneys, which perform invaluable work on our behalf. I do urge cabinet ministers to have their blood pressure read well in advance of question period. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
With us today are Lorraine Gerard, who is the executive director of the B.C. branch of the Kidney Foundation of Canada, and Ken Merkley, who is the president of the B.C. branch. They're joined by two nursing assistants, Sarah Peterson and Angela Robertson. Will the members in the House please join me in making them welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. Coell: I seek leave to present a petition. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Proceed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. Coell: As you know, my riding is Saanich North and the Islands. The southern Gulf Islands are part of that riding. I have a petition from members of Saltspring Island requesting a moratorium on ferry fares. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Falcon presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Transportation Investment (Port Mann Twinning) Amendment Act, 2008. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Falcon: Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Motion approved. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1005]
Hon. K. Falcon: Today I'm introducing Bill 14, the Transportation Investment (Port Mann Twinning) Amendment Act, 2008. This bill provides for the establishment of the Transportation Investment Corporation, a Crown corporation which will deliver the Port Mann/Highway 1 project, a key component of the province's Gateway program. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The corporation will be a distinct commercial, self-sustaining entity that will enter into a concession agreement with a private sector partner for designing, constructing, financing and operating the project, including the collection of tolls on the Port Mann Bridge. Delivering the project through the corporation will result in additional due diligence and transparency, as the corporation will be a commercial, self-sustaining entity. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The bill also allows for high-occupancy vehicles, buses, persons with disabilities and taxis, for example, to be charged lower tolls or to be exempt from tolls. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The amendments contained in Bill 14 are necessary to provide the legal framework required to implement the concession structure for the project. Bill 14 provides all members of this House an opportunity to very publicly express their support for the twinning of the Port Mann Bridge, a key part of the Gateway transportation program. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Bill 14, Transportation Investment (Port Mann Twinning) Amendment Act, 2008, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: Good morning, Mr. Speaker. I call in Committee A, Committee of Supply — for the information of members, continued estimates debate on the Ministry of Labour and Citizens' Services. In this chamber I call Motion 39. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I do call Motion 39, which I believe stands on the order paper in my name. I'd like to read the provisions of Motion 39 into the record if I could. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[Be it resolved that this House believes the electoral map for the Province of British Columbia must reflect a balance between the need for reasonable and effective representation and the constitutional requirement for relative voter parity; and, further, believes that none of the 12 regions identified in the Electoral Boundaries Commission’s preliminary report of August 15, 2007 should have its existing level of representation reduced under a new electoral map; and, accordingly, approves the establishment of an electoral map for the Province of British Columbia that will include 85 electoral districts on the following basis:
Adoption of the proposals contained in the report of the Electoral Boundaries Commission as contained in its report entitled Amendment to the Preliminary Report (February 14, 2008), (“the Report”) with the following alterations:
a) The proposals for the North and Cariboo-Thompson Regions are not approved and the alternatives contained in Appendix P of the Report relating to these regions are approved in their place.]
In moving Motion 39, I think it is incumbent upon me, and I would like to, first of all, pass along the thanks of all hon. members to the commissioners who have toiled as the Electoral Boundaries Commission. That includes the hon. Mr. Justice Bruce Cohen, Stewart Ladyman and Harry Neufeld who in addition to being a commissioner, of course, serves as Chief Electoral Officer for the province of British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This can at times be a thankless job, and they have gone about their duties with diligence, professionalism and care. They produced a final report that was submitted via you to the chamber on February 14, Mr. Speaker, and I'm sure all members of the House will join me in thanking them for their deliberations and their thoughtful report, both interim and final report. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The report derives from a statutory requirement. The Electoral Boundaries Act requires that a new commission be established after every second provincial election, to propose changes to the electoral boundaries based on the most recent population changes. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1010]
With that in mind, this commission was required to be called following the 2005 general election and prior to the 2009 election. This Boundaries Commission had an even more challenging task insofar as their mandate was not simply the standard task of examining and making recommendations around electoral boundary alignment but also to propose changes to the electoral boundaries that would be necessary in the event that a referendum around the single transferable vote was successful. They have performed that task, and I'll speak briefly about that component of their report later in my remarks. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This chronology begins shortly after the 2005 general election. In 2006 the Premier made a statement in this chamber confirming that the advice of the Chief Electoral Officer was going to be taken and that the referendum around the STV proposal would take place coincidental to the general election scheduled for May 2009. That, as I say, has prompted the recommendations relating to that component of the commission's work. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In September of 2006 the commission announced that they would be embarking upon public consultations in 26 B.C. communities from September through to early November '06. They would seek input on the number, on the boundaries, on the names of B.C. electoral districts. They would speak with people, groups, interested parties — MLAs, in many cases — and prepare an initial report. That initial report was presented via yourself and your office, Mr. Speaker, to the Legislative Assembly on August 15, 2007. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
After members had had an opportunity to examine the preliminary recommendations contained in that report, members will recall — and you certainly will — that on September 12 the Premier wrote to the Speaker, advising you of the government's intention to introduce legislative amendments to the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act in what would then have been the upcoming fall 2007 session. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That was followed up with a news release where the Premier's intentions and the government's intentions were expanded upon to introduce legislation that would give the commission the legal tools required to protect rural representation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Members will recall that in the initial interim report of August 2007, the commission indicated that notwithstanding the concerns it had heard and in many ways shared around the issue of preserving reasonable levels of rural representation, it did not feel that it had the necessary tools to give effect to many of the wishes and concerns it had heard during the course of its deliberations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The commission, I think, quite fairly and quite properly pointed out and acted upon the constitutional requirements to preserve a sense of parity within the electoral system — to be cognizant of what the courts, the common law, said about the need to ensure a measure of equity existed with respect to our democratic institutions and our electoral system. It prepared its interim report with that very much in mind and reflecting those constraints, if that is the correct word. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In October of last year Bill 39, the Electoral Boundaries Commission Amendment Act, was introduced. I don't propose to relive the drama associated with that bill, but suffice to say, it was clear there was not a measure of bipartisan support that one would seek on matters of this sort. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1015]
Bill 39 did not pass. It did not become law and did not, therefore, amend the Boundaries Commission's mandate nor provide it with the tools that it seemed they were seeking by virtue of their preliminary report. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Boundaries Commission shortly thereafter, in early December of 2007, issued a press release outlining what they were going to do next, which was continue with a measure of public hearings, a more limited schedule of public hearings, and that they would be submitting their final recommendations to you and to the Legislature by the required date of February 15, 2008. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That in fact took place on February 14 of this year, just a month ago. All members and the public had the benefit of receiving their report, Amendments to the Preliminary Report, as it's entitled, dated February 14, 2008. Members have reviewed the report and are aware of the recommendations contained therein. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Boundaries Commission, in its final report, made proposals that would have seen 83 electoral districts for the province. That body of recommendations, their formal recommendations, would have reduced the number of districts in the north and Cariboo-Thompson regions by one each. The north would have changed from eight to seven districts, and the Cariboo-Thompson from five to four. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
They did something else, and members are aware of this. They included in their report an appendix — a number of appendices, but appendix P. In appendix P they describe that as the product of work they had done in response to Bill 39 of last fall, and I suppose their expectation that Bill 39, which was introduced in October '07, would have passed. It did not, of course. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
They had created alternative scenarios for those two regions, the north and the Cariboo-Thompson, that would have maintained the number of seats, the number of districts, in those two regions. It included that alternate approach in their final report of February 14 of this year. In fact, at page 211 of their report, that section is actually titled "Our scenarios in response to Bill 39." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In the penultimate paragraph — and I'll read it into the record — the commissioners in their report say: [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
"As mentioned, these scenarios were prepared with Bill 39 in mind. We have merely included them as part of this report to indicate what we considered at the time might be the appropriate boundaries for these two regions under Bill 39. In the event that the Legislature determines to accept our proposals for all of the other regions but decides to alter our proposals by restoring the number of current electoral districts in the north and Cariboo-Thompson regions, for a total of 85 electoral districts, then these scenarios may provide assistance to the Legislature when drawing the boundaries for these two regions."
That is the option that this motion, Motion 39, seeks to act upon. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The government, in making this recommendation to the Legislature, continues to believe that preserving fair, reasonable and functional representation for all regions of the province is of fundamental importance, of paramount importance, and believes that the Boundaries Commission, in addressing this matter and presenting the option contained in appendix P, has produced a means, and a reasonable means, for doing just that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1020]
We thank the commission for conducting their work. Admittedly, they began it, I think, in anticipation of having been provided with the formal tools that Bill 39 would have provided them. In any event, they have contained the product of that work in their final report, and it represents an opportunity for this House to take advantage of that. Motion 39 encourages the House to take advantage of that opportunity. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I should say this, because with respect to appendix P…. The appendix P proposals do not change the overall size of the north region. So there's no issue of any sort there. The commission simply fits eight districts into an area that, in its original recommendations, contains only seven. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
However, appendix P does enlarge the size of the Cariboo-Thompson region with the creation of the Fraser-Nicola electoral district. This district includes a portion of the Boundary-Similkameen electoral district in the Okanagan region. So appendix P also contains an alternative for Boundary-Similkameen, which will be smaller than under the commission's main body of recommendations in the main portion of the report. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Functionally and practically speaking, I think the biggest impact there is that under the appendix P scenario, the town of Princeton, which is the principal population centre, would shift from Boundary-Similkameen to Fraser-Nicola. So under the appendix P scenario, the town of Princeton would be within the Fraser-Nicola electoral district. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I should say, as well, that the report — and I haven't spent any time at all on this — also contains proposals for electoral districts under the single transferable vote, and they are contained within the recommendations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The motion that is before the House speaks to the establishment of 85 electoral districts. The motion is silent with respect to the STV electoral map. It's silent on that because at this point, that remains a hypothetical. People will be voting on that option in the referendum that is due to take place contemporaneous to the general election in May 2009. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It will remain for a future Legislature to bring a motion with respect to boundaries for an STV electoral map in the event that the referendum is successful or the referendum question passes the required thresholds when that vote takes place. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So this motion and the recommendation contained therein relate to that portion of the commission's report dealing with the establishment of electoral districts under our existing electoral system. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There is never a perfect solution, and for each person there is a different idea of what the perfect electoral map should look like. Those of us who have the privilege of sitting in this chamber have both a unique vantage point and also, some would argue, a vested interest in the outcome of these deliberations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think that what we have in the manner of the main report — combined with the alternative or option contained in schedule P — provides us with a balanced, practical, reasonable approach that, in the words of the motion, balances the need for reasonable and effective representation with the constitutional and legal requirements for voter parity. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I hope that members of the chamber share my and the government's view in that regard, and that Motion 39 will enjoy their support. With that, I do move Motion 39. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1025]
M. Farnworth: In taking my place in this debate on the motion, I want to take the opportunity to put on the record some of our views on this important matter. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The boundaries process has been a long and tortuous one. It has been bungled and mishandled, in our opinion, right from the very beginning on an issue that is important to how our democratic process functions and how elections are handled in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The public wants to know that at the end of the day, boundaries are achieved fairly, that they're not gerrymandered, that they're drawn independently, and that they have confidence that the electoral system we have in place reflects those views and attitudes. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We will be supporting this motion, but we're also going to be raising some concerns. We're going to be raising some questions that we hope the government takes into account in presenting the final legislation or the final bill to this House so that the public will know that every base has been covered, that the ducks are in a row and that this whole exercise will not have been a waste of taxpayers' dollars. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As I said, when the announcement was made around the establishment of the commission, it got off to a slow start. There were questions raised about the membership of the commission. It took a long time for that to get resolved. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Then the commission was able to go out and do its work. It toured the province of British Columbia to meet with citizens — the public, people interested in the electoral process right across the province. I think one of the real problems in this process is that the government didn't communicate with the commission, failed to communicate with the commission, on some of the key issues around electoral distribution. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Our members on this side of the House were at those hearings advocating for rural British Columbia, for the north, for the Kootenays on the importance of rural representation, on the importance of northern representation, on the importance of representation in the Kootenays. That was very much a central theme of presentations to the commission. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We got back the preliminary report, and it increased the number of seats to 81. But it removed seats from the Kootenays, it removed seats from the north, and it removed seats from the interior. People were not happy and had a number of concerns about that. Some people are still unhappy about that. But what's important is that members on this side of the House were out strongly supporting representation in those areas of the province. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So when the report came down, we were concerned by what we saw. We said that we and the committee in its subsequent hearings need to address those issues. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The government's response was somewhat more ham-fisted. It was: "If those seats aren't put back in, it will not pass." An absolute. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1030]
M. Farnworth: It was followed by a letter from the Premier's office, which confused matters even more. We waited and waited and waited. The commission was unable to proceed. It was in a state of limbo. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Then we had Bill 39. Bill 39 again was dictating to the commission. "You shall have this number of seats." Well, that is what starts to interfere with independence. That starts to interfere with the independence of the commission. That raises concerns. We spoke out against that, because what's crucial is that the boundaries must be drawn independently. They must be drawn by a commission, and they must be completely free of any interference. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So we watched. We saw the commission go and do its work, but we also saw a government that continued to mishandle and bungle this file. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We had a legislative session, both spring and fall last year, and a bill that was as important as boundaries came in at the end. It didn't pass. Again, the commission is left wondering what's going on, what's taking place. This government put an inordinate amount of pressure, and from our perspective, it was interference. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The commission came back with its final report. It had, in its main recommendation, 83 seats, and it had the appendix P, the additional boundaries, added to it. Appendix P was based on, had Bill 39 passed, how they would have addressed some seats in the Cariboo and in the north. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Members on this side of the House are concerned and have been concerned about that issue of rural representation, of northern representation — ensuring that their vote and those ridings matter. We want to see a boundaries report that ensures that rural ridings are in place, that the ridings in the Kootenays are in place, that ridings in the interior are in place and that we're not seeing a reduction in representation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But we're also mindful — and this is where some of the key questions are — that the commission, in its recommendations and in pointing to appendix P, points out the issues of population variation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We want to ensure and put on the record that the government has thought about the issues of a possible court challenge and a constitutional challenge; that they have legal opinions in place to address those issues; that when the bill comes forward, they're mindful in that they know those issues need to be considered in the bill and need to be thought of in terms of the drafting of the bill; and that they have all their legal ducks in a row on the bill when it's brought to this House. As I said earlier, we want to ensure that the process does not come undone. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1035]
As I've said, we're supporting the motion. We're supporting the appendix on the boundaries. I'm glad that the Government House Leader has clarified the issue around the regions and the 83 and the 85 in regards to the Nicola and the Boundary. We think it's important that that's on the record. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We want the government to know that the opposition will study the bill very carefully. We will be watching to make sure that the boundaries are as they are in the appendix. We are watching to see that the boundaries are as they are in this bill. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Call me skeptical, but if you go back and look at the history of this file, the mistakes, the bunglings…. The mismanagement of this file is one that I think is embarrassing to the government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So we want to make sure that the final product, the final piece of legislation, fully reflects what is in this report. And if that's the case, then it will be a bill that will have the support of this side of the House, because it will achieve the key goals which we on this side of the House believe are important. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
First is that it is completely independent. The boundaries are totally independent. It reflects the issues that we have fought for around representation in rural British Columbia, northern British Columbia, the interior of British Columbia, and also reflects the growth that's taken place, for example, in the lower mainland. My own area comes to mind. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Equally as important, as I've mentioned, is that we've got our ducks in a row — that the government has its ducks in a row on the legal issues that will face a boundaries bill report when it's adopted. The government must realize that this is watched not just here but outside this chamber as well. Those issues are well known not only in this province but in other provinces. I cannot emphasize enough that caveat to the government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Finally, I have to comment somewhat on the irony. We are going from 79 seats, with the passage of this motion, to a bill that will increase it to 85 seats. When the Premier was running to become leader of the B.C. Liberal Party — in fact, when he was leader of the B.C. Liberal Party — one of his key promises was: "We will reduce the size of the Legislature to somewhere between 50 and 60 seats." That was something he campaigned on. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That wouldn't have done much for rural representation. It sure wouldn't have meant three seats in Prince George. So I have to say that it's somewhat ironic that we're now going to 85 seats. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But that having been said, with boundaries that are independent, that reflect rural interest, that reflect the Kootenays, that reflect the interests and the needs in the interior of British Columbia, arrived at independently — with those caveats in place — we will support this motion. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1040]
Hon. P. Bell: I had intended to keep my remarks fairly short, and I will do my best. Given the nature of the comments I just heard, I feel compelled to perhaps add a little. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I find it richly ironic that the member opposite stands up and suggests that Bill 39, which was tabled in the last fall session, would have been gerrymandering and that it would have been playing with the electoral boundaries as articulated by the commission. He's supporting the recommendation that has been brought forward, including the appendix. Yet the appendix says very clearly, at the beginning of the appendix, that the Electoral Boundaries Commission understood that there was a bill tabled. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In the knowledge of that piece of information that there was in fact a bill tabled in the House, which would require an outcome that balanced rural representation with representation by population, they prepared an option that could be utilized, which we are today debating and the opposition has just confirmed that they will be in support of. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So the Opposition House Leader is arguing that today he is supporting a proposal that would have been tabled and approved in the fall. Yet the opposition refused to allow it to be voted upon in the fall, which would have achieved the exact same outcome that we are at today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
You can't have it both ways. You can't, on one hand, say that this is a terrible government and that we're gerrymandering and messing with the Electoral Boundaries Commission and then, on the other hand, say that even though the outcome is the one that would have been achieved as a result of that process, we're now supporting that. You just don't get to have it both ways. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I know this opposition has truly taken to heart the spirit of their title — opposition or oppose. I have not actually seen them come forward with credible arguments or with reasonable, plausible options. They talk about protecting rural representation on one hand, and yet they refuse to allow an appropriate debate to take place and a vote to take place that would have achieved that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to leave that aside because I did not want to go into great depth on this topic. I did feel compelled, though, to speak about it because it is so important to my constituents in northern British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This was a topic that galvanized everyone in northern British Columbia, regardless of political stripe. It was completely irrelevant. My colleague the Minister of Education, who is the member for Prince George–Mount Robson, and my colleague from Prince George–Omineca, who I believe are both going to speak to this, attended a meeting of the Electoral Boundaries Commission in Prince George. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There were people there of all political stripes, and they were unanimous in their view that we needed to protect the number of seats in northern British Columbia in order to have adequate representation. The original electoral boundaries map that was prepared was completely unreasonable. It would have had one individual represent communities that were 400 or 500 miles apart and still represent populations similar to ridings like Vancouver-Burrard that you can walk around in a couple of hours. You can walk around the boundaries of that particular riding. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In order for rural British Columbians to have adequate representation, it was absolutely critical that the government took action and mandated the Electoral Boundaries Commission to find a way to maintain the notion of that rural representation and still balance off the needs of representation by population. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This was an issue that galvanized rural B.C. I'm afraid that the opposition couldn't find a way of being productive around this issue. It would have been far more appropriate had they really said what the Opposition House Leader has kind of said here today — that we do need to protect those seats. I do think that this outcome is an acceptable one. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think the maintenance of the independence of the Electoral Boundaries Commission is absolutely critical. Let's be clear. That's exactly what Bill 39 would have done had it been passed. The Electoral Boundaries Commission would have had complete and total authority over the shape of the boundaries, simply mandating the need to protect the number of seats in rural British Columbia. I think that is appropriate. So the notion of the independence is extremely important. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1045]
There will be people in my community of Prince George who will say that it is not appropriate to lose the third seat in the community, for the community to go from three to two. There will be those that will agree with this. But the fact that it is being proposed by an independent commission, that they in their best judgment have assessed this model to be the appropriate one, I think builds the case for approval of this particular model. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Even though I know it will be somewhat divisive in the community, that we will need to work through that, it does balance out the notion of rural representation and maintaining the number of seats in northern British Columbia, the Kootenays and the Kamloops, Thompson and Cariboo regions. It also allows for appropriate representation by population. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think this is the compromise that makes sense. It is independent. There has been no fettering of this process by any political figures, and certainly, I am very supportive of this proposal going forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
L. Krog: Well, when the Minister of Agriculture began his remarks, he said that he was more or less inspired by the remarks of the Opposition House Leader. His muse, if he will. I just want to say to the Minister of Agriculture that he's my muse this morning, and I'm inspired to say a few words in light of his remarks in this chamber. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
To stand up here and suggest that somehow directing the commission to come to certain conclusions isn't some form of gerrymandering or direction beggars the imagination, frankly. The fact is that last year's bill failed because everyone recognized that's precisely what it was. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
An independent commission, by its very nature, subject to what legislation says, has to come to its conclusions independently. It conducts hearings. It listens to people. It considers past history. It considers legal precedent. But it has to come to its own conclusions strictly. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The opposition has called for the protection of rural seats throughout this process. The opposition's position was never, ever anything other than to protect and ensure reasonable rural representation. British Columbians, historically, have always understood, given the vast geography of this province and the difficulty in representing rural constituents, that we had to ensure that the balance between the need to have one person, one vote and a reasonable correlation between the numbers of constituents that a member represented had to be balanced against the need for rural British Columbians to have effective representation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What is before the House today recognizes the need to protect rural seats. But for the Minister of Agriculture to stand here and defend what every intelligent commentator, what every political pundit, what every political scientist and what every member of the opposition understood was clearly an attempt to subvert the independence of the commission, for him to defend that here today is just absolutely unreasonable. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We have now stumbled along this path for a very long time so that now the Chief Electoral Officer, who is going to have to implement whatever bill the government brings forward, is going to face significant problems and difficulties as a result of the repeated failures of this government to do the right thing when it came to ensuring fair boundaries for British Columbia's citizens and, in particular, fair boundaries for those rural ridings. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As the Opposition House Leader has indicated, the opposition's going to support this motion, but the government cannot, by introduction of this motion, escape the fact of its past record in the mishandling of this matter from start to finish. It is a disappointment to the people of British Columbia. It's a disappointment to the members of the opposition, and it's sad that we've now put the Chief Electoral Officer in a very difficult position as a result of this. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We will move forward as best we can to ensure that representation to rural British Columbia is guaranteed, but the Minister of Agriculture can't stand here today and succeed in convincing any members of the voting public or the opposition that what happened was anything other than a huge botch by this government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1050]
D. MacKay: I'm not going to get into the pros and cons of the motion that is before this floor today. I think we've already heard the House Leaders from both sides speak to the pros and cons, and the Minister of Agriculture and the member for Nanaimo have talked on why we're here today. What I want to do this morning is, first of all, thank the Electoral Boundaries Commission for the difficult job that they had to do. I think they have done a very commendable job, and I want to say: thank you for that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The part that I found somewhat unsettling was in their final report where they said: "We continue to propose a reduction of one electoral district in each of the north and the Cariboo-Thompson regions." As a government we have let it be known that we will not support the reduction or the elimination of any northern rural ridings. That brings us to the motion on the floor before the House today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As I said, while I appreciate the work the Electoral Boundaries Commission did during their travels throughout the province, I have to say that I was somewhat disappointed in the fact that the only community they visited in the northwest part of our province…. If people understand the geography of our province of British Columbia, there is an awful lot of province north of the Highway 16 corridor. The only community that they visited during their travels was the community of Burns Lake. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
While people from Smithers and Telkwa and Houston travelled to Burns Lake to do presentations, the rest of the people in the northwest part of our province did not get an opportunity to make oral representations to the Electoral Boundaries Commission. I can say that of the 15 people who appeared before the commission at Burns Lake, most of those people were elected officials from those communities. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
They spoke passionately about their desire not to see any loss of rural representation. They spoke about not changing boundaries just for the sake of changing boundaries. They talked about the relationship between the regional hospital districts, the communities, the regional districts themselves, school districts, aboriginal communities. They were all mentioned, and they were spoken to very passionately about those people because they're all tied together now under the riding of Bulkley Valley–Stikine, and they did not want to see change for the sake of change. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But the most important message they all delivered to the Electoral Boundaries Commission during those oral hearings at Burns Lake was that they did not want to see the loss of any rural representation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Under this new motion that is before the floor today to correct a problem that was identified with the loss of two rural seats, Bulkley Valley–Stikine, as we know it today, will disappear. Bulkley Valley–Stikine is the largest riding in the province. Today, with the 79-seat scenario that we have, Bulkley Valley–Stikine is going to disappear. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Today there are 17 ridings throughout the province that have a deviation from the provincial quotient of greater than the plus or minus 25 percent that we are working toward. Bulkley Valley–Stikine currently has a deviation of minus 41.1 percent, made of communities along the Highway 16 corridor from Burns Lake: South Side, which is located near Burns Lake; Granisle; Topley; Houston; Telkwa; Smithers; Moricetown; Kitseguecla ; Bell II; Iskut; Telegraph Creek; Dease Lake; Good Hope Lake; Lower Post; Atlin; Fraser; and Pleasant Camp. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There are many, many small communities located within those I've just mentioned that I have not mentioned. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As the MLA for Bulkley Valley–Stikine, I deal with seven mayors. I have two regional districts, four school districts and some communities that don't have any governance at all. So it is a challenge. It is a challenge, but it was not insurmountable. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1055]
As I said, with the motion on the floor today, we're going to see Bulkley Valley–Stikine disappear, and a new riding called Stikine will suddenly appear, which will include Telkwa and Smithers and communities west along the Highway 16 corridor as far west as Cedarvale and then going north again along the Highway 37 north corridor, which will include Stewart and Kitwanga and the communities that were previously contained within the large riding of Bulkley Valley–Stikine. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The total population of the Stikine riding will be 20,500 people. That's a pretty small population. But there's an interesting scenario that comes to play here. When we talk about the plus or minus 25 percent, with the new riding of Stikine coming into being, we will see the deviation increase to minus 57.4 percent of the norm of the quotient today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Minus 57 percent — that is the highest in the province. So we're going from the largest riding in the province, called Bulkley Valley–Stikine, to a smaller riding called Stikine, which is going to have the largest deviation from the plus or minus 25 percent that we are trying to achieve. I don't think this new boundary change is what the locally elected people wanted, but I do understand the challenges that the Electoral Boundaries Commission had as they embarked upon their task. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The positive outcome of this motion is that the government was and is committed to no loss of rural representation. The increase in seats to 85 will see rural representation further diluted in this chamber. But we will retain the rural representation as we committed to the rural residents of British Columbia, and for that, I am grateful. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. T. Christensen: I seek leave to make an introduction. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Proceed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. T. Christensen: I'm very pleased to welcome a constituent of mine. It's not often that I get to introduce people that are down here from Vernon, but Wilf Mulder is in the gallery at the moment. He's visiting Victoria and Vancouver Island on business. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Wilf is a fellow that is a very valuable community member, having been instrumental in the resurrection of the junior chamber of commerce in Vernon. He is currently the past president of the Jaycees for the whole of Canada. So he's certainly a young man that's making a significant contribution on the local level, the provincial level and the national level, and I would ask that all members please make him very welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
J. Rustad: I'm pleased to stand to speak to this motion this morning. I have to say that when this whole electoral boundary process started, there was a commitment by both sides of this party, which supported it to go up to 85 seats. In the discussion in this House, there was a commitment of desire that we wanted to see the seats in rural B.C. maintained, particularly those in northern B.C. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What is being proposed by this motion does do that. It achieves those goals that were originally laid out. It's unfortunate, some of the process and the haggling that has gone on around that. But I needed to stand today to talk a little bit about how this process unfolded. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Once the initial report came out, I had the fortune of attending five of the Electoral Boundary Commission's meetings: one in Burns Lake, one in Prince George, one in Quesnel, one in New Westminster and one here in Victoria. Throughout that process, the literally 100 people or so that gave oral presentations — as well as many, many more that gave written presentations — all gave very similar presentations — those that were in favour of maintaining the rural representation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
They recognized the challenge of distances, the challenge of geography and the need to be able to maintain that rural voice. A great amount of the wealth and the activity that is created in this province comes from rural B.C., from those rural communities, and it's important to let that voice be heard loud and clear within this chamber. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1100]
I'm pleased to say that through my three years that I've had the honour of representing the people in Prince George–Omineca, I've heard that voice clearly in our caucus debates and in our House debates throughout this process, the issues that are to be heard from rural B.C. — from my colleagues from Prince George–Mount Robson, Prince George North, up in the Peace and Bulkley Valley–Stikine as well as the colleague from down in the Kootenays. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
From those people that represent those rural areas, not to forget about my colleagues from Kamloops, it's been very clear that that voice has come forward, and that voice is reflected in a lot of things that our government has done. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
When I read the final report with regards to the option of 83 seats, I found that that did not maintain the spirit of what the original intent was with the Boundaries Commission. This motion uses that appendix P, the option to increase it to 85. Now, there are some people in my riding that are going to be quite concerned about this, about the option of going to 85, because it's going to reduce one seat in Prince George. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I can tell you that I would not stand here and support a motion that called for that loss of representation if I didn't also have to take into consideration the greater picture. There are areas of this province that are growing dramatically. They also need and have the right to effective representation. To not support this motion would be saying to those other areas in the province that their right to effective representation is not equal to the right of effective representation for rural B.C. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Even though I represent rural B.C., and I want to make sure that that voice is loud and clear, I also have to recognize the importance of this Legislature and the importance of that effective voice. Throughout my riding, in the communities of Vanderhoof and Fraser Lake, Fort Fraser and Endako and Fort St. James, as well as many of the smaller points in between and around, they said very clearly to me that all of their economic, social and communication ties were linked to Prince George. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Similarly, the communities of Houston, Burns Lake, Granisle and those areas are linked to Smithers, so when the original report came out in August combining those areas, it created a challenge for those communities. It created a challenge because they would lose that link. When it's 85, that challenge still exists, but this creation of 85 also creates an enormous opportunity. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The new riding of Nechako Lakes will also create what is probably the only true rural riding in the entire province. There's no community over 5,000. It's a relatively small riding by population. It's a relatively large geographic area, but all those communities have one thing in common. They are all rural, small communities, and they all have the same needs and interests that rural B.C. represents. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Although there is resistance to change, as there always is, I think this creation of those boundaries will create that very unique opportunity for a very concise voice to be able to bring forward those rural concerns. For me personally, there are some issues around the loss of Prince George–Omineca, but the Legislature is much greater than any one individual. The Legislature is about doing what's right for the entire province. It's about bringing forward policies that respect all corners of the province and all voices in this province. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As we go down this path — obviously, because of the potential impact that 85 has — I'll need to be making some pretty significant decisions. I look forward to having those discussions with my wife, going forward. But I can tell you that after my discussions with my wife, if the decision is to seek another nomination and to seek to represent another riding in this province, it would be a tremendous honour to have the opportunity to represent a truly rural riding in this province and to be that voice for northern and rural B.C. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
With that, I'd just like to say that I believe the commission did the best work they could do, given the tools they were given. I have a huge amount of respect for what they have done. A great number of concerns were brought forward around this province, and they did their best to be able to address that. They did their best to be able to provide the options that were required. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1105]
I think, when people look back at this, that they will go down in history with the work they have done on behalf of the province as being exemplary. I just want to say thanks for their efforts, for the challenges that they went through but also for the integrity of the report that they brought forward with these options. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Thank you for the opportunity to add my voice to the debate this morning. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. S. Bond: I'm delighted to be able to have the opportunity to add my voice today as we speak to the motion that's on the floor considering an issue that is of utmost importance to not just British Columbians but to people around the world. That's the opportunity for people to have effective representation in the Legislature or whatever form of government represents them. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I can tell you that as we've worked our way through this process, as has been referenced by my colleague who represents Prince George North, we have had countless conversations and phone calls with people across British Columbia, not simply in northern British Columbia but in rural and urban British Columbia, about the importance of effective representation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to just read a quote from a letter recently received — in fact, today — from the office of the mayor in the city of Prince George. One of the things we've been grappling with is: how do we ensure that northern British Columbians, in our case, have effective representation? There's a great paragraph in here that talks about that from our municipality. I want to quote: [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
"This is not just about numbers and population. It's about effective representation, equity, access and opportunity, and acknowledgment of the contributions and needs of our communities. It's about a successful transition to a renewed northern economy; to a renewed northern vision; and to realize our full potential in a provincial, national and international context. We must recognize and continue to support the integration and connectivity of our northern urban economy with our northern rural economy."
People want to know that their views and their values and their concerns are reflected and heard in the seat of government. One of the things that I'm very proud of in northern British Columbia is that when the debate began about whether or not we should reduce representation in northern B.C., one of the strongest messages that I heard as a representative of that part of the province was that we don't want to not reflect the growth that's been seen in the other parts of British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It's as important when we have areas of growth that there is effective representation for those residents as well. So one of the things that we grappled with from the beginning of this process is: how do you reflect growth but also preserve the important voices that are necessary in northern and rural parts of British Columbia? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Despite all that's been said in this House today, I can assure you that one thing that we have been clear and unequivocal about on this side of the House, led by the Premier of British Columbia, is the fact that we would not support a report, a recommendation or legislation that reduced rural or northern representation. That has been clear and unequivocal, and at each step of the way we've said we're not supporting it if it reduces representation for northern and rural British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I know that several members, including the House Leader, have very clearly underlined the process that we've undergone to reach this point today, and I want to add my thanks to the commission as well. They certainly were given a challenging task with the tools that they had, and despite our best efforts as a government to actually increase and give a more effective set of tools to the commission, that did not proceed through this Legislature. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The task that they were given was within a particular framework. In fact, they were unable, under the current circumstances, to grapple with one of the most fundamental concerns expressed by British Columbians across this province, and that was fair and effective representation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But they did give us an alternative. They gave us an option, and in their final report they made it clear that, if Bill 39 had been successful, there were boundaries that would have been created that would have reflected not only the views and values of British Columbians but certainly the intent of the government of British Columbia, led by the Premier. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1110]
Today the motion that comes to the floor respects the importance of reflecting growth. It takes the balance and the main parts of the report that are presented, but it does take appendix P, which in fact brings to life and to fruition the commitment that this government has had from the beginning of this process, and that is that we will not see a reduction in representation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We should reflect the fact that boundaries will change and relationships within ridings will change, and that is not always comfortable. You've actually heard members of this House stand today who are impacted by those boundary changes. But the boundaries have been created by an independent panel. They, in fact, provide effective and fair representation in areas of growth and in rural British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I am very proud today to stand on this side of the House to support the motion, which actually brings to completion a promise made by the government of British Columbia that we will not see a reduction in rural or northern representation. I will certainly be enthusiastically supporting the motion. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. Wyse: I rise to reserve my right to raise a matter of privilege. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, Government House Leader closes debate. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: Well, here we are. We stand on the threshold of taking one more torturous step along the path that is boundary realignment in British Columbia. I am gratified to learn of the support that appears to be present within the House that will allow this motion to move forward with what I think will be a strong measure of bipartisan support. That is helpful and, I think, will also be gratifying for the Boundaries Commission, whose work has provided us with the tools we now require to move forward on the strength of this motion and draft the requisite legislation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That is the process, for the information of members. I think most know that following the passage of this motion, the government will set to work drafting a formal legal instrument that will create the boundaries, the maps and the legal descriptions required to be in place for the election in May of 2009. That will all happen on the strength of the motion that has been debated and will soon be voted on in this chamber. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I feel compelled to make these observances. The appendix P that it sounds to me like the House is drawn towards adopting as a reasonable mechanism by which to ensure the representation in the two regions discussed — the north and the Cariboo-Thompson — was drawn up in a very purposeful way by the Boundaries Commission. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In fact, the section of the report that it is included in begins with the heading "Our scenarios in response to Bill 39." So it's unfortunate that some attempt has been made to characterize the legislative initiative that was introduced last fall in the way that it has been characterized here today, where the genuine intent was to provide the commission with the tools that it indicated it required to accomplish the purpose that is being met here today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I note that had there been a genuinely nefarious intention, that debate would not have ended the way it did. We spent more time last fall on that bill than on any other. We spent ten sittings through seven sitting days. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1115]
It was my hope and the government's hope that the government and the opposition could come to an agreement around the rationale for creating those tools. We did not. That's unfortunate, and therefore, the bill didn't pass. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It didn't pass because the government thought it important that a measure of this sort should not be the product of an imposition by the majority. I understand that there will be an attempt by some to characterize those events in a certain way. I would suggest that the events speak for themselves. Far from being any attempt to direct — or improperly influence is probably the better phrase — exactly opposite was the case. It was an attempt to create the tools. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As it turns out, it sounds like everyone in this House believes the commission required…. It sounds like virtually everyone in the House is going to applaud and adopt the recommendations that flow from the final report that include a very significant piece that represents the commission's response to a piece of legislation — a bill. A piece of legislation that they anticipated would become law did not, and as a result, it appears as appendix P and forms a portion of the motion that is before the House today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That is the history, and it is history. We will move forward. I appreciated the remarks of all who spoke in this chamber. We will set to work now on the strength of the vote that will happen in a moment to draft the necessary piece of legislation, bring it before the chamber. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The opposition will have an opportunity to scrutinize and ensure that the maps are as they should be and the descriptions are as they should be. Then we will have empowered the Chief Electoral Officer to do the work that he needs to do in advance of the May 2009 vote that is drawing ever closer. British Columbians will be able to go to the polls secure in the knowledge that a process has completed itself, and electoral boundaries that find an adequate balance between proper, fair, effective representation and relative voter parity once again exist in the province of British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
With that, I move Motion 39. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1120]
Motion approved unanimously on a division. [See Votes and Proceedings.] [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I call committee stage debate on Bill 12. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1125]
The House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on Bill 12; K. Whittred in the chair. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The committee met at 11:28 a.m. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Section 1 approved. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
On section 2. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: Just a couple of questions — certainly, a bit of clarification. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
On section 2, I'll go over section 2(a)(iii), (v) and (vi). They're all talking about this "mortgage of the lease registered against the title to Block B in the land title office in favour of The Bank of British Columbia…." It goes on to say: "the mortgage of the lease registered in the land title office in favour of Hongkong Bank of Canada…." I'm just doing the first parts of these. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'll start with those two. Could I just get some clarification from the minister as to what that is referring to? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: Those are charges that relate to the present lessee, and therefore, follow the transaction. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: Now, the golf course is a significant part of this bill. Can the minister…. This bill is separate from the treaty process. I'm getting a nod, so I'll continue with that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
How will this affect, or will it affect, presumably, the future treaty negotiations as far as land goes? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1130]
Hon. M. de Jong: The first thing I should do is introduce to the House on my right John Pyper and on my left Tom Nykyforuk, who are joining us today to work through the legislation and, as in the case of this question, reference to the agreement from which this legislation flows. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The best way I can answer the member's question is to refer to the agreement, section 6.01. I'll read it; it's not that lengthy. Under the heading "Reconciliation": [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
"Musqueam acknowledges and agrees that in the spirit of the new relationship, the lands acquired by one or more designated companies in accordance with this agreement constitute a contribution by the province towards the reconciliation of the province's and Musqueam's interests and the settlement of Musqueam's aboriginal rights and title claims through treaty or other negotiations.
"In this regard, the province confirms its continued commitment to resolve Musqueam's unresolved aboriginal rights and title issues."
So it becomes a factor, and as the agreement points out, it constitutes a contribution towards that final settlement. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Just further, so that I can understand this. Since there was direct reference, through this land acquisition, to treaty that this would…. Even though it's outside of the treaty process, it's directly referred to as having an effect on the treaty process. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My understanding is that the Musqueam are on stage 4, I think. Will this expedite that treaty process? Will this bill actually form a basis to move the treaty process further ahead? It's still formally outside of the treaty process. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I think it's a good question. I don't know that I have a precise answer. I do know this — that the ability to move forward with complex negotiations depends very much on the nature of the relationship that exists between the parties who are at the table. I have no doubt that the conclusion of this agreement enhances that relationship greatly, and we heard that from Chief Campbell directly. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My hope is that as we take these steps along the path that is reconciliation — as we establish bona fides, good faith and an ability to work closely together — that will reflect itself positively in the work that is taking place and will continue to take place at other tables, including the treaty table. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: Then further to that, has the treaty table been active during this process since the court challenge happened? Did that have any effect on the treaty process for the Musqueam? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I think it's fair to say that in the last number of months, the majority of the negotiating effort has been directed towards this agreement. That is, I think, logical and also a reflection of the capacity that both sides possess, but also reflective of the desire to achieve something tangible. So the efforts have been very much directed at this agreement. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. It would be expected for the last couple of months, certainly. I was thinking more the last couple of years. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1135]
Has the treaty table been active with this court decision being decided on and then a ruling made to go back for consultation? Did all that consultation take place, or a majority of it, through this bill — I don't want to say at the expense of the treaty process — or was the treaty process active parallel to this? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I think it's fair to say that in the aftermath of some of the judgments that have been instrumental in terms of a relationship with the Crown, the effort has been largely focused around attempting to resolve that. That evolved into a larger discussion of the sort that we see reflected here. The treaty table has not been particularly active in the last two years. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: Thanks for the clarification. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Auditor General, as the minister knows, was somewhat critical in his last report — I don't like to say side deals —of deals outside of the treaty process. I think in a lot of cases he was referring more to forest and range agreements, FRAs and FROs, and that sort of thing, as causing some confusion around where the treaty process starts and where it ends. Side deals may actually impede the progress of the treaty process. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Was that ever discussed? I understand this was mandated by the courts. What I'm thinking of is other first nations. They've seen this sort of litigation process lead to a bill that led to some form of reconciliation outside of the treaty process and instead of the treaty process from a first nation that was actively involved in the treaty process and fairly far along in that stage 4. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So I'm just wondering: has that been discussed or thought about — how that will affect the treaty process not just for the Musqueam but for others that are involved in the process? Does this sort of muddy the waters of the treaty process further? Again, I'm using the basis of what the Auditor General referred to in his last report. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I also recall the passage in the Auditor General's report, and I can tell the member, first of all, that much thought has gone into the notion generally. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think I know what the Auditor General was trying to communicate and, in fact, think that they may have said something subsequent to that. But as it appeared in the report, candidly, I disagreed with the statement. I think done recklessly, that could be the effect. Done properly, incremental or interim agreements can actually facilitate moving forward to larger agreements. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It really, in many ways, is a case of building trust. Treaties, final agreements, are hugely complex, complicated documents. I think we'd all like to say: "Let's take that step all at one time." For some communities we've been able to do that. Six communities have signed off on treaties in the last number of months. But even there, there have been agreements along the way — forest and range agreements or other things — that have helped develop the relationship. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So the member is wise in raising the issue. Ultimately, it will always depend on the specific circumstances, but I think there are times when an interim or incremental agreement is precisely what's needed to help the parties get to first base, as it were. If we're going to stand at the plate and wait for the home run, we may be waiting a long, long time. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think that one does need to be careful about not disincenting the move towards a treaty. At the same time, though, one needs to recognize that at times — and the member correctly points out there was another imperative at play here, and that related to some outstanding litigation — there will be other circumstances in which it makes eminent sense to take a couple of smaller steps rather than just wait for the one large step. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1140]
S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister. I do not disagree, certainly, with his last statements. However, his comments about the Auditor General's report and his disagreeing with that, I suggest…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I mean, the Auditor General is quite clear on the forest and range agreements — FRAs, FROs. They were not particularly helpful in the treaty process as was, actually, The New Relationship as it stands still today — a non-formal document, unsigned, not legislated, causing nothing but confusion throughout the process of the new relationship, if you will, and the treaty process. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That's been reaffirmed by recent solicitations from the leadership council to try to get that new relationship formalized. I think the Auditor General's statements have proven true. Also, the recent aboriginal forest commission's work has certainly affirmed that the FRAs and FROs haven't, in general, helped first nations at all and yet have still caused some problems as far as clarification goes with the treaty process. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'll move on. Towards the end, subsection (6): "the undersurface rights and other reservations and exceptions registered in the land title office under number BW194454." The subsurface rights. Were there existing subsurface rights with the previous owner, with the University of British Columbia? And if not, does this represent a significant change? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: The reservation of what I am advised are Crown subsurface rights does not change under these provisions. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: Just on a broader question about section 2. Obviously, the removal or the redistribution of these lands in the name of reconciliation I support as the critic, and the minister knows that. But it has been controversial, no doubt. Everyone here is aware of that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think the public deserves a bit of clarification on that. So that's sort of the context I'm asking the question in. I know there was concern that the bill — or certainly the announcements that were coming up to this bill — does not state that the course will be continued for public golf course purposes until 2008, only for golf course purposes. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There is concern from the public about access. Is there anything in the bill that affirms that public access, or is that at the discretion of the Musqueam? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: The agreement from which this legislation derives in schedule F refers to the golf course use restrictive covenant and sets out, in detail, the requirement that the lands be maintained for use as a golf course until the period ending December 31, 2082. It also further says that the transferor hereby covenants, promises and agrees that during the term, the lands will not be used except as a golf course and compatible ancillary uses. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1145]
There are two things that flow from that. There is presently a lease in place which, obviously, directs the manner in which the golf course is operated and managed. I believe that lease is in place until 2015. Decisions will be made at that time about how the golf course is operated. Those will be business decisions, and like any business, there will be an interest in attracting the widest possible use and in generating revenues from that. It will be a process that will continue during the life of the restrictive covenant until at least December 31, 2082. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. So post-2015 and the use as a golf course…. I look at it like a municipal zoning sort of thing. Uses are already set and established for the next 60 years or whatever, but there's no stipulation of public use. So it could be operated — I mean, it's discretional — as a private club. Is that possible? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: At the expiration of the existing lease, the operator — whoever that is…. It may be a renewal of the existing lease, or it may be offered to some other operator. There will be a decision made — based, presumably, on business considerations — about the manner in which it is operated as a golf course. The member is correct; there's a range of options available there. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: So that could include a sale of the leasehold to a private operator. That's an option that could be contemplated? That's within the realm of management decisions? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I think the answer to that is yes. There's no guarantee that the present lessee will continue to operate. I'm not an expert on what the present lease is or if there's a renewal provision, but theoretically, yes. The lessee could change during the course of the next 60 or 70 years. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: So that would be par for the course, I guess. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Can the minister lay out how he proceeded to come to this settlement? I mean, the public didn't seem to be involved. I may have missed something there; I didn't have any meetings involved with this. I know this was ordered by the courts, but I think the public would like to know the process that did lead to some controversy — just a thumbnail sketch. Did this involve the larger public? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I've heard other questions along similar lines, and what I generally do is remind people that the negotiation with respect to the golf course lands derived from a very public exercise, which is a matter being before the courts, and a very public order or ruling from the court directing some things to happen. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We don't, as a general rule, negotiate settlements around litigation in a public domain, and I am the first to admit and acknowledge that. This agreement had some additional provisions contained in it, but the original genesis for this part of the discussion derived from that public declaration from the courts that an attempt was being made to transfer, which the court found did not qualify and did not meet the test for consultation and accommodation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1150]
S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that, and I agree with the court decision. Obviously, proper accommodations and consultation did not occur. This is the aftermath of that, and I understand that. I understand, certainly, the trend towards dealing with these court decisions. They're not necessarily in public. The fallout of that is not necessarily a public process. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This had a very public fallout. There was definitely a direct effect on the public. So I just wanted to clarify that the process was maybe by necessity a private one through the courts, but this was done largely secretly. I think it raised a lot of speculation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Looking at this in hindsight, there might have been a better way to do this to ensure that the public were more inclusive and more supportive of this bill. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
On that note, I'll close on section 2. But I will stand on section 3. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Section 2 approved. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
On section 3. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: This is another controversial section as far as some elements of the public go, largely because it is around parkland. Of course, there will be a ceasing of regional park status under this section. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I guess a similar question…. Maybe I'll get the same answer. Again, public outrage in some cases was raised over this. I guess there's fear from the public, because they weren't involved in this. They just don't know. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Is this a precedent? It isn't part of the treaty process — we've already established that — although it's linked to the treaty process potentially. Parkland acquisition for settlement of treaty is certainly a discussion that the public, I think, wants to have. Was the public involved in these discussions? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: In many ways — the member is correct to this extent — people cherish the parks we have in a very urban part of the province. These are incredibly valuable assets that exist for the broader public good. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Ironically, the public component of this dates back long before the hon. member and I were sitting in this chamber — back as far as 1989, when the regional park was first created. This is something that I think many people choose not to remember or genuinely don't remember. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
When the park was proposed in the transfer by the government of the day, the Musqueam, as I think the member knows, stood up and said: "Whoa, whoa, whoa." This was at a different time, when tests around consultation and accommodation…. Those concepts weren't known. In fact, the Canadian constitution had not yet been repatriated, and notions of existing aboriginal rights were foreign to the discourse that took place. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Yet even in those days, there was a recognition that something was as yet unresolved. The attempt to transfer actually became the subject, again, of public litigation at that time and was only permitted to proceed on the strength of a specific affidavit being obtained, recognizing that the creation of the park and transfer of the land was taking place subject to the rights of the Musqueam and without prejudice to their rights to pursue the claims they had in that traditional territory. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
People in many cases weren't around and choose not to remember that, but that was a very important decision that actually facilitated the creation of the park in the first place, when it was transferred for the sum of $1. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1155]
So in many ways what's taking place here today is a further chapter in that saga, where we are beginning the process of resolving that issue and the transfer and the removal of a portion of the land from the park. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Also, the other point I do make to people is that in the case of one of the blocks, which I think is block K, which is closest to the golf course, the land that is being removed from Pacific Spirit Park does not really — most of it — resemble much in the way of park. Ironically, the land that is being redesignated park, from the golf course, is actually the land that is used very much as a park — has trails, has park-like amenities. The objective there was not to see any overall diminishment in the park areas. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This is, again, an evolution of the attempt to resolve that unresolved issue from 1989 and do it in a way that takes into account the interest and passion people have for access to parkland, but also accommodate the interest that the Musqueam have to develop some solutions to their housing challenges. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It's all about trying to find that balance. I obviously believe, and I think the member does, that we have settled upon a solution here that does achieve that balance. That doesn't mean there won't be lots of commentary and there hasn't been lots of commentary from those who, quite justifiably, point out their passion for the maintenance and creation of additional park space. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: Member, noting the time. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Fraser: The committee rises, reports progress and seeks leave to sit again after lunch. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Motion approved. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The committee rose at 11:58 a.m. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Committee of the Whole (Section B), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong moved adjournment of the House. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Motion approved. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 1:30 this afternoon. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The House adjourned at 11:59 a.m. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
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