2009
Legislative Session: First Session, 39th Parliament
COMMITTEE A BLUES
This is a DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY of debate in one sitting of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. This transcript is subject to corrections, and will be replaced by the final, official Hansard report. Use of this transcript, other than in the legislative precinct, is not protected by parliamentary privilege, and public attribution of any of the debate as transcribed here could entail legal liability.
(HANSARD)
PROCEEDINGS IN THE
DOUGLAS FIR ROOM
Committee of Supply
ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF
PUBLIC SAFETY AND SOLICITOR GENERAL
The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); H. Bloy in the chair.
The committee met at 2:36 p.m.
The Chair: Good afternoon. Before we start, I want to remind all members that they're allowed to use a BlackBerry and a computer only while they're seated in the committee chair. Once they take the floor, they cannot refer to any device. For everyone in the committee room, cell phones are not allowed at all. There is no voice contact. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
For the gallery, the rules apply the same here as they do in the big House. There's no use of BlackBerry or cell phones. It's an honour system, so we expect you not to use these devices. If you receive a call, you have to leave the room. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
On Vote 38: ministry operations, $625,431,000.
The Chair: Minister, would you like to make an opening statement? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Yes, I would, and I'll make it very, very brief. I am pleased to have the opportunity to present the estimates of the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[D. Hayer in the chair.]
I'd like to introduce some of my immediate staff right here. I have David Morhart, deputy solicitor general, to my left; to my right, Wes Shoemaker, Deputy Minister of Public Safety. I have Tara Faganello's assistance here, and Ted Stevens. Other staff will be brought up here as necessary as we proceed through. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Before we begin, I'd just like to outline…. I've got a number of questions directed more to the minister's office in the beginning. Then I'd like to proceed through a series of areas of the minister's responsibility in the ministry involving restorative justice, gang issues and programs, municipal police forces, the RCMP contract, regionalization, correctional facilities, an issue around coroner's inquests and finally victim services and ICBC. For particular points, besides myself, other colleagues of mine will be coming to ask questions. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In terms of the minister's office budget and the ministry budget in general, has there been an increase in the minister's office budget? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1440]
Hon. K. Heed: There has been a slight decrease of $17,000 from '08-09 to '09-10. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: What areas does that decrease involve? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Those are other operating costs, which were mainly used for travel and other business expenses. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Has there been any change, or is there an advertising budget within the ministry? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We don't have a separate advertisement budget for the minister's office or for the ministry. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Have any programs been transferred under the current budget to another ministry? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: There were no actual programs moved out of the ministry. We did have funds moved out of the ministry to the Public Service Agency, and that was $3 million for human resource services. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1445]
M. Farnworth: Has there been any reduction in any program spending areas? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Within the Estimates, the "Ministry Summary," there were two reductions. One was the civil forfeiture account special account, for $750,000, which was an accounting adjustment. Under corrections work program account special account, there's a $23,000 reduction, and that was due to administrative reductions. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1450]
M. Farnworth: On the $750,000 in the civil forfeiture, can you tell me what type of accounting change, reduction, that was? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: This was money that was provided by the ministry to get the program up and running. It was startup funds. This is a self-funded program. As a result, this was removable money, and it was removed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: In other words, the government provided the money to start the program — the civil forfeiture. So when we realize assets, either financial or monetary, and they now come under the possession of the Crown, and the money that was used to set that up.... [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What the Crown is now doing, then, is clawing that back. Is that correct? They're saying: "Okay, we've received this money from civil forfeiture, but we're now going to take back our startup costs." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Is this something that happens on an annual basis, or is this a one-time thing? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: One time. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Has there been an increase or decrease in the number of FTEs in the various programs in the ministry? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: The FTE allocations are under review, as discussed in the government September budget update. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: In other words, you're showing reductions over the next two years. Is that correct? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: That is still under review. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1455]
M. Farnworth: Can the minister tell me which areas of the ministry are under review? Is it...? Or let me put it this way. There must be a goal, or there must be some sort of idea of a reduction that the minister is working towards in terms of the review. What areas are under review in terms of reductions, and can the minister give an idea of the size of the potential reduction that's under review? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: I can assure the member that there will be…. We're not looking at program cuts. We want to maintain all front-line services. Where we would be looking at areas for efficiencies would be back office staff. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: So are Corrections under the review for potential staff reductions? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: No front-line services would be looked at in Corrections. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: How about funded provincial police positions in some of the integrated teams? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Not in this budget. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: So it's not in this budget but potentially in the budget that we will be dealing with in a few months and in the service plan then. What you're saying is that that may well be the case. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1500]
[D. Horne in the chair.]
Hon. K. Heed: The question was with respect to this particular budget, and that's what the answer was referring to. We're in the process of looking at future budgets, and the question I answered was in reference to this particular budget. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: But the service plan the minister operates, which is part of this budget and the future service plan out, does anticipate staff reductions in a number of areas — does it not? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: FTEs for each ministry are currently being reviewed across government and, therefore, are not reported in this service plan. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: I remind the member to keep the questioning to the motion before the committee. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Thank you hon. Chair. We are discussing estimates of the ministry, and part of that work is, as the minister has indicated, a review of FTEs. That review is clearly taking place with a mind to next year's budget, but that work is being done and that expenditure is taking place in this year's budget, and it's clearly a focus right across government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What I hear the minister saying is that while — for example, in the case of Corrections — he's not anticipating any front-line reductions in staff, the fact is that the ministry is reviewing because they have to deal with cost pressures that are in place that have been imposed, clearly, in terms of a review of FTEs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So can the minister tell me: is the government's recent change in this budget to MSP premiums accounted for in this particular budget? Has the ministry received increased funding to take care of those increased costs? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1505]
Hon. K. Heed: There were no dollars added. MSPs are reflected in our current employee benefit plan. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: But they are increasing. Has the ministry looked at the impact of HST on its operations and at how much that is likely to be? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We have started the analysis. There is no impact in the current fiscal year because HST will come into effect July 1, 2010. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I understand that it doesn't come into effect until July 1 next year. But in terms of the impact on the ministry and the operations of the ministry, it will have an impact, particularly when you're looking at it in a way that you're having to do a review of FTEs, for example, in terms of cost containment. You've got increased costs from MSP. There are increased costs from HST. Any idea when that work will be completed and when the impact number will be known? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: The review is currently underway. If there are any more questions related to HST, I would ask that you direct them to the Minister of Finance or the tax policy branch for the Ministry of Finance. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: In other words, the ministry is not involved in any way, shape or form in terms of the impact on HST? They're not involved in providing information and not involved in providing areas where they think that there will be an impact on HST? Is the ministry involved in any way, shape or form with this? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Yes, we are involved, but the Ministry of Finance is taking the lead with respect to this. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: So it's a good thing we have Finance estimates to come up too, because I think that there will be an awful lot of questions being asked then exactly about the impact, because it's pretty clear that that hasn't been assessed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Okay, let's move on to one other area. Have there been any changes in terms of performance measures either being added or dropped from the ministry service plan? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1510]
Hon. K. Heed: I've been advised that there have been no performance measures changed since the February 2009 service plan. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: One of the key areas that the minister is responsible for is around crime prevention. One of the key areas that has received, I think, a lot of attention over the last number of years has been around the issue of restorative justice as an alternative way to the court system. It has received a considerable amount of support in the local communities, but also among police themselves. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Can the minister tell us what the state is and how the budget is changing for restorative justice this year compared to last year? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: The restorative justice program has been maintained at the same level from year to year. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: So in other words, it has not had any funding increases. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: That's correct. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Setting aside for the moment the lack of increase in terms of funding for restorative justice, what changes in the way that the program is being delivered or administered is the ministry undertaking or contemplating at the current time? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1515]
Hon. K. Heed: We are not contemplating any changes. This is to support communities. It's led by these local communities and with respect to their local needs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: It is led by local needs, but the money that's available to allow them to do the work they do comes from the province. If funding does not increase over time, then the amount of money they have available to them decreases, and therefore, their ability to do the work they do also decreases, and in part, many of these people, by and large, are volunteers. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd just like to get the minister's perspective on how he sees restorative justice and how it can work within the current criminal justice system in the province and whether or not he believes that it should be expanded. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Personally, I'm very, very supportive of it. Our ministry is very, very supportive of restorative justice. We're working with the communities, as indicated. We're letting the communities take a lead, and I think our commitment is demonstrated in the fact that during the times that we're in right now, where we are looking for efficiencies, we've maintained restorative justice programs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We will continue to advocate for other levels of government and other stakeholders to get involved in restorative justice. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I would expect, given the minister's background, that he would recognize the role of restorative justice and its importance. One of the ways to ensure that its success continues and that we're able to use it in more communities is that it's something that is accessible right across the province. Right now that's not the case. There are a number of areas in the province where restorative justice doesn't function. Does the ministry have any plans to address that? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1520]
Hon. K. Heed: We have outreach programs and outreach workers that go across the province giving information with respect to restorative justice programs that are offered. There's an application process and an application that communities go through to apply. This year the deadline was October 19 for those communities to submit their applications for restorative justice programs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: When you apply, there's a set amount of money that you can get. Is that not correct, Minister? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I see the minister nodding his head. For the next question, a nod will probably apply as well. There's also a finite amount of money that is available in terms of restorative justice for communities to access. Is that not correct? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I again see the minister nodding his head. In other words, the problem becomes that if you want restorative justice to function across the province — where you have equity in terms of a community's ability to access it — right now there's not enough money in the restorative justice program to do that without cutting the funding to those communities that are already participating. Isn't that right? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1525]
Hon. K. Heed: The ministry provides up to $150,000 for restorative justice programs in British Columbia, and it's up to $2,500 per program in 2009 to 2010. As I've indicated earlier, our goal was to maintain services this year for restorative justice across the province. The government also supports a variety of other restorative justice initiatives, including 31 provincewide coordinators around restorative justice, with our corrections people working with our federal partners. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: The bottom line is that we have a program which we know works. The minister knows it works. Front-line police officers know it works. There's a budget of $150,000 right now which communities can access, but it doesn't go right across the province. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As a result, we have what is potentially a very effective tool in terms of crime prevention, particularly in preventing those from reoffending, and all we're doing is maintaining, when, instead, we should be looking at how we can increase its effectiveness, make it more available and encourage more communities to be involved across the province. I think it's a problem that the minister needs to address. I don't think that just maintaining that current funding is going to achieve what I think he knows is an effective program. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I've got a few more questions on this particular area. I'd like to know: is the ministry involved in, and could he provide details on, the interministerial committee on restorative justice, which is currently under development? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We are working across government from an interministerial goal to deal with this particular problem. I would like to be as specific as possible for the member, so if we could, we will get that information to him so he has actual specifics with respect to that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I appreciate that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'll ask a few more questions, then, so that hopefully, if he's got the answers, we can get that resolved now. Is it the Public Safety and Solicitor General's ministry that's taking the leadership role on this committee, or is it another ministry? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1530]
Hon. K. Heed: I've been advised that this is a partnership between the Attorney General, the Ministry of Children and Families and my ministry, and we do have the lead on that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Given that the ministry is taking a leadership role on this, can the minister tell us if members of the restorative justice community are on the committee? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We will have to get back to the member with respect to the composition of that committee. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I appreciate that. I'm hoping the answer is yes, but does the minister not believe that it would be important, if there's an interministerial committee that's reviewing restorative justice and looking at restorative justice issues, that it have members of the restorative justice community on the committee? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: I certainly think it's very, very important to have them involved at one particular step and be there when we go to them and talk to them. As far as the composition of the committee, we will get back to the member with respect to that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Well, I would encourage the minister to ensure that there is participation and representation from the restorative justice community on this committee. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[J. McIntyre in the chair.]
I think that if you're looking at how restorative justice can fit into the justice system but also in terms of being more effective in how it does its role — and I think we all agree that it is important — then I would think you'd want to hear from the people who are actually engaged in that front-line delivery of the program. So if the minister could commit to that, I would appreciate that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Is this committee going to be looking at the way in which restorative justice is currently funded, for example? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We would be looking at partnership funding, best practices and community needs, to name a few. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1535]
M. Farnworth: Nice to see you, Chair. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
To the minister: those are laudable, and I think we all want to see an increase in potential partners and having as many people as involved as possible, but what I've heard so far sounds a little vague. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In terms of funding, is the current funding model going to be part of the committee's purview? Are they going to examine the current funding model, which is basically grant-based? Are you going to be looking at, perhaps, changing the model to a more sustainable model that's based on either contract funding or a more permanent system of funding? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: That would be part of the funding model discussion that would take place with this particular committee, not just with reference to our ministry but all of the other ministries that are involved. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: So does the minister believe that the current funding model does need to be changed, and is it the ministry's position that there should be changes in terms of the funding model? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: It's part of the review that the committee will look at, and it's prudent, in my opinion, for that committee to look at the funding. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Will a review ensure that there's a cost-effectiveness analysis done of the current model of funding, and perhaps compare it to other alternative models, such as a more long-term contract, moving away from the uncertainty of grants? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Yes, that is something that they would look at. I'll just provide some additional information. This year we moved from grants to contracts for accountability reasons and to ensure that we focus on best practices. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I think one of the things that the restorative justice community has been looking at is ensuring that there is long-term sustainability. So whether it's done by grants or if it's by contract, I think that's one of the key issues that needs to be addressed, and I think that's one of the things the committee needs to be looking at. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Has the committee started its work yet, and when is it anticipated that it will finish its work? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We will commit to the member that we will get back to him with that specific information. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I would appreciate that, because I do think it's important. I would also, before we move off, like to once again stress, I think, the need that if there's a committee — an interministerial committee that the ministry is taking a lead on — that is looking around restorative justice issues, it include members of the restorative justice community. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1540]
I think that they have important insight and advice to give, particularly since they're the ones who are delivering the program on the front line, and I think the minister knows how effective restorative justice can be. So I would ask that he do those things. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Yes. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: At this particular time I'd like us to move on to some of the gang-related programs, issues. So if there's staff that the minister needs to come up, I think now is the right time to bring them forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Hon. Chair, I'm joined by my ADM Kevin Begg. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: The minister commented earlier this year that we not only must be tough on gangs but equally tough on social conditions that breed them. We need to put in place a comprehensive, coordinated, assertive regional gang suppression strategy that addresses intervention and prevention while moving law enforcement from being random and reactive to proactive and sustained. I'd like to know what changes the minister has put in place or are in place in this budget that are aimed at preventing young people from entering gangs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We've added $1 million to the allocated $3 million that we've invested in youth programs, youth education programs, programs that are designed to be proactive and to prevent our youth from getting engaged in gang activity and the gang culture. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Can the minister outline where the additional money is going to, and can he also outline how the programs are being monitored? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1545]
Hon. K. Heed: To give a few examples of the prevention programs we have in place…. We have the Youth Against Violence line. We have the Children of the Streets Society that we do fund for various programs — also school districts, many around British Columbia, including Prince George, Richmond, Vancouver, Kamloops and Abbotsford. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1550]
We also provide funding to the South Asian community, to groups around there to come up with prevention programs for some of the gang prevention side of it. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
One particular program that there's a lot of promise — and I'll go back to the Surrey school district — is called the Wrap program. We're hoping that we can duplicate the results of that particular gang prevention program throughout the province. That's one that right now is showing some very, very promising results. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We will look, from an accountability point of view, at all of these particular programs and work forward from a best-practices point of view on what actually is working to prevent our youth from getting involved in gang activity. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Are those programs new programs that this million dollars is going to, or are those already-existing programs that the money is going to? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Part of it is for an expansion of existing programs. We do have some new programs, and we are currently working with some partners in a very, very innovative way in order to ensure that we have a very sound prevention program in place that we can evaluate as we move forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Can the minister tell us who those partners are? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: It's in development right now, and until we confirm the relationships and the arrangements we have with those particular individuals, it would be premature to give those names out. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Any idea how long this will take and what the timeline is for accomplishing it? You've got this new money that is there. Some of it is going to the expansion of existing programs, and some of it is going to new programs. What timelines are we looking at? What sorts of concrete actions and dates is the minister trying to work towards to get this accomplished? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Several of those programs are already underway, as I've mentioned. We will be launching a new program in the near future. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: The government says that youth gangs are a priority. They say, "We've got additional money for it," and that there are partners, but they can't say who the partners are, because that's still under negotiation or it's still not been ironed out yet. Now the minister is saying there's going to be a new program. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My question is this. Is he expecting all the money that's allocated in this year's budget to be spent in this year's budget on gang and youth prevention programs? So if that money that's earmarked for new programs.... If those programs don't materialize until later down the road, when we've got those partners in place that are somewhere out there, and there's this money that's not spent, is that money going to go to existing programs, or will that money go back into general revenue? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1555]
Hon. K. Heed: Our intent is to expend the dollars by the end of the year. With some of the existing programs, we do have contracts in place, and we will honour those particular contracts. As we move forward, as I've mentioned, our intent is to spend the dollars by the end of the year. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Will the minister guarantee that that money will go towards fighting youth gang activity and existing programs? Let's put it this way. It would not be the first time that a government has said: "We're going to spend money in this area on a new program. We're going to get all these partners in place, and we've got this money budgeted." The public looks and says: "Oh, that's great. Government is doing something." And the reality is that for one reason or another, it doesn't materialize. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So you have this pot of money that government has said is to fight gang activity, and you have existing programs that are providing some services. The minister has talked about ensuring some expansion, so what I want to know is: is there a firm commitment that the money that has been allocated will, in fact, be spent in this fiscal year on gang prevention programs? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Yes, I'm committed to spend that money on gang prevention programs by the end of the year. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Now that we've established that the money will, in fact, be spent, can the minister tell us: does the ministry have targets in place in terms of reducing the level of gang activity — in particular, youth gang activity — and if so, what are those targets? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: As far as the contracts go with some of these providers, we will be looking for a measurement of the success of their particular prevention programs. We do not have specific targets on this simply because when you're involved in preventing crime, as you move forward, especially when you're dealing with the youth, what we invest now with the youth may not pay off for several years. It's difficult to measure that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
From our point of view, there have been indications of success, like I mentioned in one particular program. We're hoping that we can use best practices as we move forward. We have not set specific targets with respect to this prevention, but we've built accountability into the contracts that we've provided to the various providers and groups out there. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I understand what the minister is saying about investments being made today paying dividends down the road. That applies not just in crime prevention but right across the spectrum. In other areas around crime prevention — poverty reduction, for example — I guess that same principle would apply, that money spent on this end will pay dividends down the road. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But surely there must be some indication within the ministry that they have a sense of the scope of the problem right now and would be looking at that, for example, as a baseline in terms of…. We don't want to see increasing; we want to see the trend line decreasing. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1600]
Can the minister tell me if, in fact, the ministry has a sense of how big the problem is — is it present — and how that differs from, let's say, five or six years ago? Has the trend line been increasing, or has it been decreasing? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: As we've mentioned earlier, the committee would be looking at best practices and at the data that is available. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But I just want to go back to talking about my experience. A lot of the individuals that are involved in gang and organized crime activity right now were individuals that were back in elementary school in the early '90s. At that time we didn't have prevention programs to any degree in the schools to deal with gang problems. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As a result…. I'm sure the member has heard me say many times in my previous career that we had a generation of kids that grew up looking at certain gang members that were out there, and these young kids were aspiring to be these particular gang members. Unfortunately, that's what we have taking place right now. The individuals that we're arresting in our balanced approach to this are those young people that were at that age group, the demographic that we're focusing on right now. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Again, it's difficult for me to give quantifiable numbers, if that's what the member is actually looking for, on not only the scope of the problem with our youth…. I can give numbers on the scope of the problem in general with gang members out there operating and the number of gangs, you know — the number of killings that have taken place. Albeit our crime rate is down, but the murders are up. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I can certainly talk about the success we've had since February in locking up several of these gang members and charges we have, but I think, bringing us back, what we're talking about here is prevention, and we're talking about whether or not we can quantify an indicator that shows the success or the failure of our prevention programs. That is difficult to give at this particular time, not only from my point of view but from my experience in law enforcement, even from my experience in the world of academics when we've looked at and talked about this particular problem. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1605]
M. Farnworth: I agree with some of what the minister has said, that there aren't definitive…. But certainly there's an idea of what the scope of the problem is. If you look at it just in a nutshell, if you have X number of gangs, and you have an idea of how many people are associated with those gangs — through intelligence, through law enforcement, through contacts with the court system — there must be some sort of sense of how many people are involved. You can get a sense over time of whether the problem is growing or not growing. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
If you go back to.... The fact is that the government has now been in power for eight years, and the number of gangs has grown significantly. So the question becomes: clearly, the problem is growing, so how do you look at it in terms of your success rate — okay? Now, in terms of prevention — I think that's a key area; what we're talking about here is prevention — there's one way of knowing whether or not…. You're only getting new members. You have to recruit them into gang activity. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
If your prevention program is successful, clearly you're not recruiting gang members. Right now, if you're in a gang, there are only two outcomes. You're either going to be dead, or you're going to be in jail. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Either way, it's still going to end up, most likely, one of those two things — right? If you're taking people out, if your gang is being reduced by attrition by those two methods — you're either in jail or you're dead — then if your prevention program is successful, that supply of wannabes is being reduced. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So that's the question I'm asking. You must have some method, some targets, to say: "Okay, here's how we're being successful" or "Here's how we're not being successful." It could be something like a reduction in the number of people coming into contact with police, a reduction in the number of people being arrested for gang offences. Even though we're putting more money and more emphasis onto those areas…. Are you looking at measuring those things to determine the success of those prevention programs? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think it's all well and good to talk about accountability, but there must be some way in which we know that the program is being successful. If they continue to function, and they continue to grow, then clearly they're not, given the fact that, as I stated moments ago — and I see the minister is nodding his head — the outcome of belonging to a gang is one of two or three choices, and none of them are particularly palatable. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: At this time it's difficult to separate the outcomes of our programs, simply because, as we see, our investment in our youth to prevent these members from filling the void of these gang members that we take off the street will show in many years. We've been successful. I've advocated, as the member has said, for a balanced approach to this, and that's no surprise to everyone. I'll continue to advocate for a balanced approach to dealing with this. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The problem we have right now is that when we're successful in removing these entrenched gang members from our streets, the void is filled. We know that is taking place right now. We've been successful in dealing with some very, very prolific gang situations in British Columbia right now based on our strategies that we've put in place and the enforcement model we have put in place to put these gang members where they belong — in jail. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Where I'm going with this is: we're investing in the youth. We're hoping that when they reach that demographic where they're actually attracted or going towards gangs, we will have prevented them and put them off in a different direction. We will be able to determine that, because once you get to that point, when you take these gang members out, whether it's through incarceration or something unfortunate — you know, death takes place or something like that — the void will not be as easily filled as it is now. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1610]
M. Farnworth: Which comes back to my original question in terms of how big, which is the scope of the problem right now, in terms of the adequacy of the resources that we have in place to deal with, particularly on the prevention side of things, youth being attracted to gangs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think that one of the key things the ministry needs to be able to provide in terms of assurance to the public is that there's a sense of: "Okay, how big a problem are we dealing with? How many individuals?" You know, it doesn't have to be exact, but some sense of how many individuals are being involved, so that the ministry itself is able to say: "Okay, we have enough resources at the prevention side of things to ensure that that long-term goal, which we want to have in place, is in fact achievable." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: I want to be as accurate as I can for the member, so we will provide him information on the number of gangs that we know of that are operating in British Columbia, the number of gang members associated to those gangs and the number of gang hang-arounds or gang associates that our law enforcement people, our intelligence people, know. We'll get the numbers to the member. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: One of the areas around prevention that I think is important is that different gangs have different recruitment methods, different ways of recruiting. I mean, some gangs are very tightly knit — Hell's Angels as an example — compared to others who are targeting, you know, either vulnerable youth, ethnically based targeting…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'm not singling that out separately, because I think the minister would agree that the stereotype that gang activity is — as many people think — ethnically based, in fact, is wrong. It's a much broader problem than that. There are ethnic gangs, but there are multi-ethnic gangs, and there are gangs that have been around for a long time, but there are different strategies they employ for drawing people in. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So my question is: do the programs that we have in place reflect that and recognize that, and are they targeted to that? And does the ministry take those different types of approaches in terms of recruitments and the sort of attraction, that variability that's out there, into the development of its programs and into implementing its programs? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Yes, those are areas that we look at when we're talking to these particular groups that are offering these programs and that we expect, from an accountability point of view, they will be able to address with their various programs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I have to talk about one program which still has a lot of success, and we're hoping we can replicate those results. That's the Surrey Wrap program, and that is actually taken into place. Although there is a strong ethnic community around that particular program, the ethnicity really doesn't come into play because there are some very, very common characteristics that youth are attracted to and that youth get involved in at a very, very young age, regardless if it's wanting to be a member of the Hell's Angels or wanting to be a member of the Independent Soldiers. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1615]
M. Farnworth: So how is that accountability built into the contracts, and how is it reported out to the ministry? Then how does the ministry report that out to the public? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Each of the contracts has an action plan attached to them on what they're expecting to accomplish. They also have deliverables. Those deliverables are monitored by program staff, and those deliverables and the programs are reported as a best practice, if they're successful, through newsletters, etc. They're also reported out in the annual report in relation to the service plan. So they report out on the service plan, and the annual report — the upcoming one — will reflect that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1620]
M. Farnworth: In terms of accountability, the report-out is out. It's reflected in the service plan. Still, at the same time, we don't have, in essence, within the service plan itself, targets in terms of: "Okay, here's where we are now. Here's where we think we should be. Here's how we judge it for being successful — by the programs that we have in place." I see the minister nodding, so I will say that I think that that is a weakness that needs to be addressed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to move on, because I am mindful of the time that we have here, and move from the area of prevention to some of the issues around current gang activity — dealing with those who are currently in gangs and our efforts in terms of fighting current gang activity and organized crime. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
One of the areas I'd like to focus on right now is the issue around provincial policing resources that are available. I know the minister said earlier in February that the police, more than any other factor, are in a position to make a difference. We've shown, time and again, that if you invest in law enforcement and hold police leaders accountable, you will absolutely have a definitive effect on crime. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I agree with that. I think that's the right approach. But in terms of the budget that was tabled in February, there was $284 million for policing and community safety. In the September budget that number is $283 million. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
If more law enforcement is one of the keys, how many new police officers did we get with the $1 million reduction in community policing and safety — going from $284 million to $283 million? How does that jibe? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: I'll make an assumption that the member is referring to the February 2009 estimate and the September 2009. There was a change, a decrease, of approximately $672,000. That was as a result of internal efficiencies. No front-line resources were affected with that reduction. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: So there are efficiencies, but there are no new additional front-line resources, then, taking place in this — are there? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1625]
Hon. K. Heed: There were 168 additional police resources added, and they were the result of police officer recruitment funding that we received from the federal government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: That's resources that came from the federal government. That's not additional resources coming from the province. Can the minister tell me: what's the net incremental increase over people who have left, over attrition, people retired, in terms of the actual number of new police officers? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We've added about 1,100 additional police officers to policing here in British Columbia, including provincial, municipal and federal resources. The 168 positions are on top of the positions that we had here in the province of British Columbia. It's an additional 168 positions. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Now, it's difficult to give an exact number of how many boxes — if I could use that term — are actually filled right now, because it fluctuates almost on a daily basis because you have people that are off on extended leave, people that are off on paternity leave, maternity leave, people that are on leave of absence — all of that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1630]
It fluctuates almost daily across the province, so it's difficult to give you an accurate number as to how many hot bodies are in those boxes, but we did add 168 positions. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I know the minister has made the comment about 1,100 police officers. Can he tell me what time frame they were added over? Was it, like, last year, the year before last or over the last…? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: I'm advised that it would be over the last five years, the time when we added traffic fine revenues and gave that money back to municipalities. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: So those are actually officers that were added by local government. It was local government that decided who to hire. It was local government that decided how many they were going to hire. It wasn't the province that made that decision on how many they were going to hire. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So when the province says that we've added 1,100, that's actually not correct. The fact is that local government has added that 1,100. Now we're saying we have 168, and I accept the issue around maternity leave — that it does fluctuate. But there should be a sense that — okay — through rates of attrition, through retirements, you know how many are new and how many are truly additional. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Let's, for a moment, focus on the 168, because that's what I want to talk about right now. How many of those 168 are dedicated to fighting gang activity? How many of those new 168 police officers are dedicated to fighting gang activity? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[H. Bloy in the chair.]
Hon. K. Heed: Just before I answer the question that the member had right now, I just want to correct some information that he brought forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1635]
The additional 1,100 officers were not all local government officers. The province provided money to local governments in order for them to hire police officers through the traffic fine revenue to put them on the street. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In addition, the province added 215 members to the provincial force, 110 members to the integrated road safety unit and 168 officers to deal with the gang situation we have in the province. We have a total of 368 positions dedicated to dealing with the gang situation we have in the province. Out of the 168 positions that were added, all of them are utilized to deal with the gang situation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Hon. Chair, it's nice to see you in place. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That's one of the key questions. It's like you're saying: "Forget the 1,100." When the government stands up and says 1,100, sure, there's money provided to local government. But that's their decision. That's their money. They make that decision on how many police officers they hire. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We now are at where we're saying: "We've hired an additional 110 for integrated traffic." Over what period of time were those numbers that the minister just mentioned hired? Was it last year? Was it five years? Was it since 2001? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Over the last five years. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: It comes back to the same question. Is that a net increase, or does that take into account attrition through retirement, for example, and people leaving those forces? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: It's an actual increase in positions. As a matter of fact, when people retire or whatever, those positions are also filled. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: We're digressing a little bit, and that's fine, because there are some additional questions that I want to ask in terms of where we are putting individual members. We're dealing with the issue of gangs and some of the resources that we're deploying and issues dealing with that. I'll finish on that, and then we'll come back to the resources the minister has just outlined that have been hired in terms of new police resources. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We're hiring new officers. I'll ask the same question I asked earlier in terms of youth gangs. Does the ministry have targets in place around how it's viewing success in terms of the battle against existing gangs? What are those targets? What's the accountability, and how are they being reported out? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1640]
Hon. K. Heed: What we are actually going after with respect to the gangs…. I'll get into some quantifiable statistics that we look at. We go after the top echelon of the gangs. We've had some success with respect to that. We also go after the mid-level because a lot of these individuals are hands-on. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
For example, in the drug trade we go after the street-level individuals because those are many of the individuals that frequent our licensed premises and cause problems and create a lot of dangerous activities at the street level. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We also go after the profit margin that these particular gang members are involved in — for example, the drug trade. In addition to that, we have a strategy in place to advocate for federal changes with respect to dealing with the problem. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
From a quantifiable point of view, we look at the number of gangs that are operating in British Columbia. We look at the number of gang members that we have in British Columbia. We look at the number of known gang associates that we have in British Columbia. We look at actual gang members or associates that have been charged, the number of charges, the number of individuals involved. We look at statistics around violence on the streets and in our licensed premises with respect to these particular gang members, and we look at our accumulation of intelligence with respect to the activities of these particular individuals. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: So we have all these things in place. Are they put in, for example…? Are they down in terms of targets and goals that the ministry has, so that they can measure the success? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: A lot of this information is captured and tabulated through the criminal intelligence section of B.C., which is part of the criminal intelligence section of Canada. We've created what we've termed right now a fusion centre that brings in and accumulates all this information and really determines from an intel-led perspective who our targets should be and where our resources should be deployed as we go forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1645]
So not only are we gathering and accumulating those quantifiable numbers; we're doing something with that in more of a qualitative fashion where we're taking those numbers, we're applying it to our intelligence, and we're directing our resources based on that. That information is all captured there, and it's reported out in various forms. Where it's reported out.... [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It's in our service plan where we talk about performance measures. We have violent crime, and you have our performance measures with respect to violent crime. We have other crime categories, such as property crime, listed here also. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: But that's fairly broad in terms of saying violent crime. This is specific targets in terms of dealing with gang violence and how that's measured and how that's reported out — like, in particular, gang activity, reducing the number of gangs, reducing the number of people specifically related to gangs. I mean, I understand what you're saying in terms of violent crime. That's fairly broad. That's what I'm trying to get at through the ministry. Are those types of targets and reporting out...? Is the ministry doing that? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: The official reporting out is in our service plan under violent crime. We do report out that additional information, especially when we remove some of the descriptives with respect to that. For example, you may have heard me in the last little while report out that since we've had our strategy, we've had 135 organized crime and gang members that have been arrested. They've been charged with over 350 serious offences. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So we do report it out in that particular fashion, but for an official reporting out under the service plan, we report out the violent crime rate. There are other avenues we utilize in — if I could use the category — unofficial reporting out of these statistics that I've mentioned. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I know, and I have heard the minister make those comments that X number of people have been arrested and X number of people have serious charges. The one statistic I'm still waiting to hear is that X number of people have been convicted and X number of people have been put away for X number of years. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I have not heard that yet, and I have been listening for that for quite some time. So I would say that that, I think, is one of the key pieces of information that the public is looking for. I think that only when that's in place are you really going to start to see some decline or potential decline in terms of gang activity. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We've yet to see that, which brings me to my next set of questions, and that is on the consequence side of things. I know the minister and the previous minister have made much about the issue around two-for-one sentencing. We support that, and we've advocated that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to ask the minister: what other specific changes at the federal level has the ministry been advocating for to help us in the fight against organized crime and gang crime in B.C.? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1650]
Hon. K. Heed: I just want to make a comment before I actually answer your question. I, too, am looking forward to conviction rates, incarceration rates, the length of time that we're able to keep these people in jail, and that's all part of where I'm going to with respect to what we've advocated. The previous Attorney General, the previous Solicitor General and I have carried that torch, if I can use that term, as we go forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We have to be aware –– and I'm a fan of gathering that data and measuring our success –– that we really started gathering that when the gang strategy, the organized crime strategy, was announced in February. So as we move forward, we will capture that data. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Areas that we've advocated for the federal government to get involved…. Of course, lawful access so we can deal with some of the wiretap, with the proliferation of new electronic devices that we have –– for example, BlackBerrys. We've advocated for changes in the way we deal with the part VI, the information to obtain warrants. There are volumes of work that is required by officers to get their warrants. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We've advocated for changes around the disclosure rules because often police officers' time is just taken away simply because of the processes we have around court disclosures. At times that process is lengthier than the actual investigation leading to the particular charges. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We also went in and advocated for changes around body armour, but I'm happy to say we were able to do that within the province. Of course, as the member mentioned, bail reform…. We keep advocating for changes around bail reform, but a big plus was getting them to deal with the two-for-one problem we had on remands. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We also have been advocating for changes with respect to the illegal firearm problem that we have, which is not only prevalent in British Columbia; it's certainly prevalent all across Canada. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So that's where we will continue to push for changes from the federal level and, of course, moving forward on our provincial changes. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I'm glad…. Those are changes that have been asked for, for quite some time. Some of them have been achieved. Some of them have yet to be achieved. They will take, in many cases, particularly on some of those issues…. The government…. At the federal level, they're going to take quite some time, particularly redoing legislation around wiretap evidence. I mean, that's not something I think is going to happen overnight. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But I think there are other changes that we could be looking at. For example, has the ministry approached the federal government with regards to making it more difficult for gang members and convicted gang members to have access to passports so they can travel outside the country and pursue their illegal activity outside the country? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1655]
Hon. K. Heed: Let me just lead up to the specific question that the member asked. We work hand in glove with the Canadian border security agency, with the U.S. immigration services. We are part of a national committee on organized crime. We're a part of the cross-border crime forum that looks at some of this cross-border activity between these gang members in criminal organizations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Specifically with regard to the passport part of it, that's something that we would advocate for them to look at, at this particular forum too. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Well, it's one of those things that I don't think really takes a forum. I think it takes a province just to stand up and say, "You know what? It's just nonsense that someone involved in drug activity, trafficking in drugs, gang activity has the ability to access a passport and go to China or Vietnam or wherever." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We know they're doing it. I think that that's something we should just stand up and say: "You know what? That's wrong." It should be changed. It should become a priority of the federal government. It should become a priority of the province to do that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That's one of the things I get concerned about sometimes. Things get caught up and end up being discussed and discussed and discussed, and here we are — you know, you're years later down the road. I think that that's something that I would like to see advocated very strongly, because I think that that would be another effective tool. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Now, I know that that's at the federal level and that that's not something the province can change, but I do think the province should be taking leadership on that. I do think that that is something that the province needs to stand up and say very loud and clear. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to come back, for a minute, to some of the issues that we can be dealing with at the provincial level. The minister mentioned body armour. Well, yeah, that's finally been done, but only after, you know…. It was the opposition that stood up and raised the issue, and the government dismissed it and said: "No, we're not going to do that." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd now like to raise another particular issue that the government at one time considered and then said, "Oh no, no, no. We're not going to do it," after having indicated they would do it. That's the issue around gang colours and gang paraphernalia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Is the minister open to doing what some other provinces have done in that area — for example, Saskatchewan and Manitoba — in making it an offence? I understand that the arguments are the same as around body armour, but making it an offence to display gang colours in public…. Is the minister prepared to reconsider his previous minister's decisions not to go ahead with that? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1700]
Hon. K. Heed: Although I'm quite enjoying this discussion I'm having with the member opposite, I'm reminded that we are here to talk about estimates. But I'm enjoying this. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Let me just go on. In answer to your question, we do look at best practices, and we're aware of what some of the other provinces are doing with respect to gang colours and gang paraphernalia. I'm advised that there's only been one charge laid. That was in Manitoba, and that charge was actually stayed. There were some concerns around Charter issues. What we are doing is working with the federal government to ensure that we are dealing with those particular Charter issues. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: No, we are talking about the estimates, and part of that is money that is spent on gang prevention. So I think it's appropriate to ask questions on — okay — where our money is being spent and what the priorities are, but also to raise things that I think are important that the government examine, particularly when the government has said in the past that it would look at these particular aspects in terms of fighting crime. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
If it's been done in other jurisdictions, and looking at it here in British Columbia.... I would submit to the minister that just because there's been a charge somewhere else that's been stayed, has not been used, doesn't mean that it can't be something that could be used as a tool in British Columbia. Because I know that when it was discussed, there were, for example, restaurant owners who contacted me and said: "Look, we would appreciate something like this, because it takes the onus off of us as a business people, and police have the ability to deal with the issue." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think what you're seeing in gang activity has been that growth in paraphernalia. I'll take the UN gang as an example, where they have specific T-shirts. You look at the logo. I mean, if I were the real United Nations, I would be looking at copyright infringements on the way they've got their design and the logo, because it's not dissimilar. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The point being is there has been a growth in the last number of years — for example, in paraphernalia — to mark out and to identify. I think that if there are other jurisdictions that have used it, it's incumbent upon us to look at that. I think that's something that the ministry should be taking into account, which brings me.... I am mindful of the time, and I know that there's an awful lot in this particular area that we could go to. Maybe we'll just have to leave that till next spring. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to come back for a minute to the question of resources in terms of number of police on the streets and the increase in the number of police officers and some of the areas where they've been deployed or not been deployed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Can the minister tell me the current operational strength of the integrated child exploitation unit and the integrated sexual predator observation team? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1705]
Hon. K. Heed: I am getting that information. If you'd like to wait, fine. I will have that. Or if you've got some other area you want to explore now, I'm willing to do that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I'll be glad…. We'll go back to that particular issue in a minute. It actually in some ways leads into my next particular topic that I'd like to talk about, and that is the RCMP contract negotiations and regionalization. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
If the minister needs any additional staff up front, now is probably a good time to take a five-minute break. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: The committee will recess for five minutes. We'll come back at 5:15. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The committee recessed from 5:06 p.m. to 5:12 p.m.
[H. Bloy in the chair.]
Hon. K. Heed: The member opposite asked a couple of questions regarding the strength of the integrated child exploitation unit and the integrated sexual predator offender team. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
ICE is funded for ten positions. It is fully staffed — that's what I'm advised — with the exception of one member who has been on maternity leave. Okay? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
ISPOT, the integrated sexual predator observation team, is actually operating — and this is what I'm advised — with 13 of the 18 positions filled. The RCMP has advised that they are actively recruiting members to fill the vacancies we have here. However, I am further advised that the team is fully capable of carrying out the necessary surveillance activities. Their operational capacity is still up to what it should be in order for them to do what they should be doing. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Some comments on this particular issue. I've raised this before in question period — this particular issue. The ICE unit, while it's fully funded, was initially intended to have significantly more than that. I think, if I'm not mistaken, it was intended, when it was announced…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think that was just over, probably, two years ago. I may be a bit out of date on that because I remember that the last time I raised the question, I think it had been 18 months earlier. So just over two years ago, it had been funded and was supposed to be upwards of around 30 people. That was the expectation when the program was first announced. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My question — and I'd appreciate the minister's response — around that is: what was the program originally designed to be operating at, and when was it reduced down to ten individuals? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1715]
Hon. K. Heed: We've explored this particular area. None of us…. Certainly, I'm advised that we're unaware of where the number 30 came from. When we look at the fact that ICE and ISPOT, which would equate to 28 members, are under the behavioural sciences unit of the RCMP, that still doesn't get us to 30. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We would have to explore that with the RCMP to see if in fact there were indications that the unit would be increased to that number. We're having difficulty at this particular time determining where that number came from. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Here's what I'd like the minister to do. As I said, I'm not exactly sure on the specific, on the 30. But I do remember, because I've asked the question before, that it was significantly higher than ten. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
When the program announcement was announced by the government, it was intended to be significantly more than ten, but over time, since the announcement, it has been scaled back. I would like to know — and if the minister can get it to me in writing within the next seven days, I would appreciate that — what the initial announcement was in terms of when the program was first announced, what it was intended to be. The fact that it's ten is less than what the intent was. So if the minister would do that, I'd appreciate that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The other question I have around the integrated sexual predator observation team is if the minister can tell me, because 18 and 13…. That's a significant vacancy. Almost 30 percent of those positions are vacant in what is an extremely stressful — and I'm sure I don't have to tell the minister this — type of work. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1720]
So I'd like the minister to be able, if he can tell me…. How long have these positions been vacant? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We don't have that type of detail at our hand's reach right now, and that will be an additional piece of information that we will endeavour to get to you as soon as possible. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I appreciate that, because the point that I want to get to on these particular issues is…. I think, and the minister will find, that these positions have been vacant now for quite some time and that there are issues around these two particular units that have not been addressed and that are causing problems and challenges right now in the work that the members on these particular teams are doing. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think that these are and should be very high priority areas for the province. The ability to monitor and to track sexual predators, particularly those that prey on children, should be a very high priority. If there is an issue in terms of vacancies and positions not being filled for a particular length of time — and I think that if he looks into this, he will see that it has been a significant amount of time — there's a real problem there, and we need to figure out what it is and get it addressed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Likewise, the same with the integrated child exploitation team, particularly around Internet pornography and child pornography. Again, the program was announced with a set of stated objectives that it was to achieve a certain size. If we're not doing that, I think that we need to be looking at why that is. If it's a question of resources, we need to be addressing that. But more importantly, if we're hiring additional officers, I think that this is one of those areas that we need to be focusing on. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
One of the things that I am concerned about is that, inasmuch as we are…. Fighting gang activity, clearly, is a key priority. I want to make sure that what's not happening is that officers aren't being seconded from units such as this to other areas. That's what I'd like the minister to look into for me, and if you could get back to me on that, I'd really appreciate that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Yes, as indicated, we'll get those numbers back to you, but I just want to make a point here. When we talk about these positions, they are not the only positions that are dealing with these horrific crimes that do occur related to youth. There are several other resources that are on an ad hoc basis that are dealing with this. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'll go back to my experience. In Vancouver we had a separate unit that actually looked at the child pornography part of it, which was embedded in the vice unit within the Vancouver police department, and other municipal police departments also have resources that are available to them in-house to deal with this problem. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We'll get back to you on the numbers there, but I just don't want you to believe that those are all that we have that look at this particular problem. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I appreciate the answer. I know that there are other activities that go on and other resources that are available. What particularly concerns me is that when there are specific units that are tasked in dealing with a particular issue, and those are usually formed…. I think it's incumbent on the government that they are at full strength and that we have a plan in place if there is a problem to deal with that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1725]
Let's move now to the issue of the RCMP contract and issues around delivery of policing in the province of British Columbia. In the last set of estimates on this I raised a number of questions about: what stage are we at with regards to the renegotiation of the RCMP contract that is up for renewal in 2012? If the minister could tell me where we're at, I'd appreciate that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We have moved beyond phase 1, which is this information-sharing back and forth with the federal government, where we would obtain information from them and, of course, exchange any information that they would like from us. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We've now entered what we call the negotiation phase. There are three themes attributed to that negotiation phase as we move forward. Number one is the relationship. We're viewed not as a client but more or less as a partner in the delivery of policing here in British Columbia. We're looking at improving the relationship we have with them. The second theme that we have here is around accountability, not only from an operational point of view but, certainly, from a financial point of view. The third theme that we have is cost containment. We can certainly look at the current costs and any future costs in relationship to this agreement. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What flows through these themes is an increased ability for us to audit the process with the RCMP. It gives us the ability to increase evaluation and judge our progress with respect to these three particular themes. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1730]
As part of the discussion and negotiation is around the cost impact to us if, in fact, the federal government was going to go a particular direction or make a particular announcement or change something in particular — what that cost implication would be to the province here in British Columbia — we would now be engaged in a discussion with them with respect to that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Last time there was sort of like, "Okay, we're engaged in some discussion and sharing of information but nothing," and so now we move to phase 2, which is actually into the negotiations. This opens up a whole range of questions that I think the public would like to know — where we're going in terms of policing in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The minister himself has made some statements around policing. In September the minister said: "At the end of the day I can't quite tell you" — don't you hate it when words get quoted back to you? — "what policing will look like in B.C. We are negotiating with the RCMP. If that contract doesn't work for all people in British Columbia, we will need to find something that does work." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That's a pretty direct statement in the sense that we're in negotiations, and if that doesn't work, then we've got to do something else. Okay, so I want to break this down into a number of components. Let's deal with the issues that you've raised in terms of negotiation. Then I'm going to go to: okay, where are we and what if? And then: what are the alternatives, and what work, if anything, has the province has done in those particular areas? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The minister says that there are three prime areas that they're focusing on in phase 2: relationship, accountability and audit, and cost containment, if I've heard the minister correctly. So in terms of the relation.... I think that this is one of the questions that people have. Okay, this contract is up for renegotiation — the first time in 20 years that that's happened — and there's a unique opportunity here to get changes not just in terms of how policing is delivered but in issues such as the relationship and those things that the minister has laid out. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The first question I'm looking at is this. Is the contract that you're busy negotiating...? Are you looking at either an extension of the existing, or are you looking at another 20-year contract? What type of term are you looking at? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Currently we're looking at a 20-year contract, a new contract with a five-year review of the cost base. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Within those three objectives, in terms of the negotiation that the minister has outlined, are there specific changes, as opposed to general, that the province is trying to achieve? Are there specific goals by which we can measure the success of negotiations around this contract? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1735]
Hon. K. Heed: First, areas around partnerships. We no longer have Ottawa dictating to us — for example, changes in the way we deliver policing here in British Columbia. Now, with this partnership agreement — or the area around the contract that looks at the relationship as being a partnership — if they're changing an aspect of policing, they must have agreement from us in order to do that. They just cannot dictate the change to British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It certainly gives us greater control not only in this particular theme but in all the other themes. That's all part of each section of the agreement as we move forward — in that we maintain control. It's not dictated to us as we rewrite this particular contract. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In other areas around the complaint process against police officers, the process would have to satisfy the provinces, and of course, it would have to satisfy British Columbia. It would have to be at the standard that we have set here in British Columbia for our municipal officers. It would be at the expectations that we have for our police officers here in British Columbia. It's all around looking at some type of a harmonized or unified process, but we are negotiating on the principle that this process definitely has to meet our minimum standard here in British Columbia and the standard that we certainly have for all other police officers. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Another major part is ensuring that our costs don't go up, that we have some control over the costs for that particular agreement. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Just in terms of dealing with the length of the contract. I want to come back to the complaint commissioner in a moment, because I think that would be one of the key central issues that has to be dealt with in these negotiations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But just some questions in terms of the length. Why 20 years? The minister mentioned the opportunity to review — one five-year review. Why not be able to review it every five years? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1740]
Then, what about the issue in terms of…? The minister has mentioned, for example, cost containment. What about the ability for an independent audit done by the province, for example? Will that be part of what the province is trying to achieve and one of the things that it wants to accomplish? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: The reason why we are negotiating or looking at a 20-year contract is that our partners in the negotiation are the other provinces and the other municipalities that do contract with the RCMP. They have certainly indicated that they would like some stability, some surety, as we move forward. That would be delivered through a 20-year contract. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The cost-based review would be done every five years, not just once after five years. The audit process — we would be looking at an independent audit here in British Columbia where we in fact would hire the people that would audit that particular part of it. It wouldn't be the RCMP auditing it. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Is the government planning any changes in the negotiations around the notice period to get out of the contract if the government so chooses? It's currently — what? — I think five years. Is the government planning on changing that? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: It currently is two years, and that is what we plan on staying with. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: The minister made some comments that I just want to clarify — and that is, in terms of the negotiation around other provinces. One of the things that I want to make sure we do not do is sort of sacrifice our goals or lessen our goals in what we're trying to achieve because other provinces may be reluctant, or they're not priorities of those particular provinces, because at the end of the day, we are the largest RCMP detachment in the country. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Frankly, it should be British Columbia that is setting the table. It's British Columbia that should be saying: "This is what our key interests are if we're going to continue around this contract." I would be concerned if there's any sort of hint that other provinces don't want to go down some of the paths that we feel are important. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We need to make it clear that, look, this is a contract. There are some very serious issues of concern in British Columbia around that contract. We want them to be addressed if we're going to continue with the RCMP model, and that that is very much part of the negotiations. Okay? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1745]
Hon. K. Heed: We lead the negotiations. As a matter of fact, my assistant deputy minister is the lead negotiator on that. We have most of the analysis. That is, we have most of the experts around the negotiations on our particular team. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The other provinces have been looking to us for leadership with respect to that. We have most of the players at the table, and we have one-third of the RCMP force in British Columbia right now, so we are driving the program. The other provinces are following our lead and will continue to do so as we try and hammer out a negotiated agreement. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Just if the minister could clarify: who are the other partners? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: The partners are the eight provinces. Quebec and Ontario are not on this particular one. We have the three territories. Each of the provinces has municipal reps that are part of it, and we have a municipal rep that sits on our team here in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Who is that representative? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: It is Murray Dinwoodie, and I believe that Mr. Dinwoodie is the city manager for Surrey. He also has a committee that my ADM sits on. That's made up of representatives from other areas in British Columbia with respect to municipal representation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: We've got the goals around the relationship, and the minister has outlined some of those, and he's made it clear, okay, that we are taking a lead in terms of the negotiations in regards to other provinces — that they're looking to us to lead. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
On some issues I can see that that would work fairly straightforwardly, but I'd like to come now to talk about, I think, the issue that is probably — I'm not going to say unique to British Columbia, but — where we have the most concern around the renewal of the contract. I think it's one of the key issues around policing in British Columbia, and that is the issue of police complaints and the fact that we still have in this province two different processes in place. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Previous ministers have said that they would like to move to a unified complaints process. I've said that we should have a unified complaints process. In fact, I think that we need to give serious consideration now to the Ontario model. You've got the Dziekanski case which is unfolding and a report coming down from that, which will no doubt make recommendations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1750]
A whole series of questions flows around this particular issue, and the minister himself has made some statements in this regard. The police chiefs came out and said that they want to see a more independent body, and if I recall, the minister says that he sees this as a starting point. So we have a whole series of things happening at the same time. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We've passed new legislation this term that deals with the police complaints process and the Braidwood recommendations. We have the negotiations with the contract taking place. We have the police chiefs having said the need for an independent body, and the minister has said: "Well, in terms of negotiations, what we're looking for is either a standardized process where the RCMP have the same standards" — and if I am quoting out of context let me know — "and similar procedures to what we now have here in British Columbia." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My question on this is: look, what is it that we're trying to get in this set of negotiations? Are we trying to get just comparables, or are we trying to get a unified police complaints process? Or are we now at a point of saying: "You know what? It's time to look at the Ontario model, and that is going to be part of the negotiation"? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We're working on increased accountability here in British Columbia, and you've heard me say that we want the most effective, accountable and transparent police service here in British Columbia. A lot of that is around how we deal with police complaints. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We're certainly well aware that the RCMP polices about 70 percent of the people here in British Columbia. I've been, and members of my ministry have been very vocal about the fact that we want increased accountability here in British Columbia. There have been a variety of issues that have come forward and a variety of experts, or people that proclaim to be experts, that have come forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I must admit that Josiah Wood was an actual true expert that really explored the issue around police accountability and oversight here in the province of British Columbia. We're very pleased that those amendments based on Josiah Wood's recommendations were passed in this session as we move forward. And yes, I've made statements that this is a starting point on increased accountability here in British Columbia — for example, Dziekanski, Commissioner Braidwood and the excellent work that he continues to do there. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Part 1 — we accepted all 19 recommendations. Now, how that relates to what we do here in British Columbia as we move forward.... We want to make sure that there is just one process here in British Columbia regardless of the colour of your uniform. Whether that's a unified process or stand-alone process, that's all part of the negotiations with the RCMP right now. We're moving into a stage right now where they are going to look at some draft legislation from the federal side of it in working with Public Safety services in Canada to make sure that we have that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1755]
During the negotiations it appears that they're very, very open to this. I can tell you — and I'll make the statement again — that we truly believe that here in British Columbia we need a unified process, one that the people in British Columbia understand, regardless if it's someone that comes to their door or that they deal with that's wearing an RCMP uniform or if a municipal police officer comes to the door. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Has the minister directed, or has the ministry done, any policy work on, for example, a model similar to what Ontario has in place, for here in British Columbia? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: The Police Complaint Commissioner, Stan Lowe, continually looks at not only what's occurring in Canada as far as police oversight, police accountability; he also looks throughout the world to determine what's going on. So in fact, we're continually looking at the different models that are out there with respect to the question. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: He's an independent officer. The question I'm asking is: has the ministry specifically looked at, done any policy work around, for example, the Ontario model, or has the minister directed the ministry to look at that particular model? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Yes. The ministry continues to look at the various models that are out there. The ministry, in conjunction with Simon Fraser University, will be conducting a forum to discuss the various models that are out there with respect to oversight and accountability of the police. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Has the minister directed, or has the ministry done, any work in terms of, for these negotiations, how a unified complaints process — as opposed to two separate processes — would work? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[N. Letnick in the chair.]
Hon. K. Heed: We have indicated to the RCMP that we won't sign a contract unless the complaints process meets our expectations. So we are working with them, separate from the contract, to determine what the complaint process should be. That's how it's enshrined as we move forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1800]
M. Farnworth: I want to be really clear on this because I think this is a really important part of the negotiation and what's taking place. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to make sure that what the ministry is doing, and what the minister is hopefully directing the ministry to do, is that we have worked up thorough policy that we can implement, depending on where we are, around a model that is a stand-alone model similar to Ontario, a model that is a unified process based here in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That's what I want to make sure of, that that work has been done. I think that if you're in negotiations, it's not enough to say: "Oh, okay. We're working. We've done some policy development with Simon Fraser." Rather, it's to be able to say in that negotiation…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Let's not kid ourselves. This is a federal organization and a province, and this is a serious, hardball, 20-year contract. It's: "Look, it's either this model, or we've got this model." But we're clear in what it is that we want, and we're clear in what our goal and objective are. If we don't get that, then we have the ability…. And they know we're serious. You know what? We're able to do something else. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to make sure that's what the minister has got developed in terms of policy around a complaints process. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: I just want to point out a couple things here. What we do here in British Columbia is just not based on the contract negotiations. We have said here in British Columbia that we want an accountable, transparent process. Whether it's the RCMP or whether it's our own municipal officers, we want the process that affects them. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Certainly, we've added the accountability and the oversight through the amendments to the Police Act here, and as we move forward we'll look at various things. As a matter of fact, we look at recommendations that come from these inquiries. We look at what the B.C. Association of Chiefs of Police have brought forward. We are continually looking at it to ensure that we have the most accountable, transparent process here in British Columbia for every police officer in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: The key way in which we do that is by ensuring that every officer is treated…. You know, the process works regardless of whether you're in an RCMP uniform or a municipal police uniform. There's a process that's the same. The appropriate time to do that…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The unique opportunity we have right now is the fact that a contract is up for negotiation, for 20 years. Now, I understand that that is somewhat separate, but at the same time it is one of the key things that the province has in terms of leverage to get a change. You know, it's like this is a big contract. This is one-third of the RCMP forces based here in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want us to make sure that we are clear in what our objectives are, particularly around this issue, because as the minister knows, this is an issue that has shaken public confidence in how these issues are dealt with. We have a number of inquiries that are currently…. Well, I mean, we've got two very major, serious, important inquiries that have been underway that will come down with recommendations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In terms of how those recommendations are implemented, the fact that the contract is up for negotiation again gives the province leverage in terms of implementing whatever recommendations do come down. I want to make sure that we are taking full advantage of that position. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to know that that policy work has been done, that policy work is in place. The question that I'll ask on top of that is: will the province, the government, be making those positions, or making their goal of what it is they want, public? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Will the public know — not just in a broad term of: "Yeah, we want to have a policy that's applicable to both"? Will the public, before the contract is done, know that, "Look, this is the specific model that the province wants to see in place" — before that contract is signed? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1805]
Hon. K. Heed: Policy work is going to be ongoing, just so the member opposite is aware. We're going to continually look at matters that affect British Columbia because of the changing environment around policing and accountability. I think the member would agree that's the due diligence we have to do. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We'll also do our due diligence in how we deal with the RCMP. We're in the process of them drafting up legislation, and we expect that legislation will be out there before we actually sign an agreement here with the RCMP. As far as what that looks like and how we share it with the public here, I can tell you that what that has to look like from a minimum point of view is what we already have in British Columbia, which is public for all municipal police officers. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I don't disagree with that. We've made some changes, some improvements. But what has happened since that report has come down and formed the basis of the legislation we passed this year…. There has been the Braidwood commission. The Dziekanski case came down. Plus, there have been issues raised by the chiefs of police themselves, and a considerable amount of public debate has taken place. It is definitely an issue of considerable public interest. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think where we are as a province and the standard that we've got…. Public opinion, even with the chiefs thing, has moved beyond that. There's a recognition that we need increased public oversight, accountability and all those things, particularly related to the RCMP. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think that's a good thing from the police perspective in terms of having a system that people are confident in and in terms of accountability and transparency that's fair to the police, but also the public has confidence that they know exactly what's happening and what's taking place. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What I am concerned about and what I'm hearing is that we've said — previous ministers have said and you've said: "We want to go to that unified position." What I'm worried about is that we could still end up with two separate processes. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That's why I'm saying I think it's important that we have that model out there so that the public knows what it is we're trying to achieve. That's why I've asked about the Ontario model and why I've asked about the unified model. I think that if one of the key goals is to have public buying on this and public acceptance on this, you've got to have that out there. You have to have that work done so that people can see that this is why this model has been chosen and that's why we're going down that particular path. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1810]
If that's not done, I think that to some extent we'll undermine some of the work that the ministry is trying to do. As I said, I don't want to be repetitive on it. But I want the minister to know that I think it's crucial that that work is done and that the public have a strong idea about the direction the province is going to go in terms of these negotiations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Hon. Chair, I can assure the member that we are doing that work. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: This now brings me, with that statement, to the next part of the process. That is dealing with the issue of…. Okay, if we find that we're at an impasse or that we're not happy with what we're hearing or what we're getting back, what's the alternative? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
At the last set of estimates I asked the minister what work had been done. Had there been any work done on regionalization? I was told there had not been any work done in the area of regionalization of police, particularly in terms of the Lower Mainland. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'll ask the question of you as the new minister, because I know you've had opinions around regionalization before becoming Solicitor General. I'd like to know: what work has the ministry done around regionalization of police services in British Columbia? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: The approach we're taking here — I'm sure the member understands that my perspective is a lot broader than it was in my previous role — is for more coordination within the province on how we deal with police matters. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We certainly respect, from a 24-7 point of view, the local accountability that many of the municipal forces and RCMP detachments have. But at a much broader level, from the Lower Mainland district, the RCMP have actually regionalized several of their resources. The examples that come to the forefront right now are around emergency response teams, dog teams, traffic analysts and forensics. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Those are some of the examples where it has been regionalized with the Lower Mainland district. There are municipalities, municipal police departments, that are now working together to deliver services across their jurisdictional boundaries. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: The minister is saying that there has been regionalization of some services taking place. Some of that is new. Some of that is not new. There have been issues around cooperation, and we want to see that taking place. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In terms of, specifically, the ministry looking at how a regional police force could be implemented or could work, it sounds like that work has not been taking place. It sounds like nothing really in that sense, as regards the province's position or the work that the province has done, has changed since the last time we discussed this issue at the last set of estimates, which would have been last year. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1815]
Hon. K. Heed: The province has said that if local governments wish to have a regionalized police service, they would look at that with local governments. We don't have local governments chomping on the bit coming forward and pounding their fists on the desks, saying: "We want you to regionalize. We want to work together." We don't have that right now. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We work with local governments the best that we can to ensure we're delivering a quality police service here in British Columbia. Albeit there's been some success in certain areas, and we talk about a different level of policing, but there is no ongoing study being done with respect to creating a regional police service — for example, Metro Vancouver. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for that answer. One of the issues that I think certainly the public would like to see or would like to have a better understanding on, for example, is…. The minister's answer — what I can take from that is that there has been no work done — for example, in looking at the costs of the regional police force or the benefits and downsides study that looks at how a regionalized police force could work or how it would not work, what the costs and the implications would be. What the minister is saying is that work has not taken place to this point in time. I see him nodding. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Which will bring me to my next question, and that is: has this similar type of work been done in any way, shape or form around the establishment of a provincial police force in terms of how a provincial police force could look or what the benefits or costs associated with the establishment of a provincial police force would be? Has any work taken place on that particular issue? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: There's no stand-alone separate work being done on creating a provincial force here in the province of British Columbia. We are working on coordinating and integrating our resources, whether it's RCMP or municipal police departments, across British Columbia. That's the approach we are taking at this particular time. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Of course, we're very hopeful that we will be able to, as a partner, negotiate an agreement with the RCMP. But then again, if there are significant problems that we cannot overcome, we would have to look at different models here in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: We're in negotiations on a 20-year contract with the RCMP — first time in 20 years. It's a unique, I think, opportunity for us to get improvements in a number of those areas — I don't disagree with the minister — in terms of accountability, relationship, cost containment. I think one of the most important areas, again, is around the issue of the police complaints process. Yet at the same time, we have said: "Look, we're not going to sign a contract unless it meets all the goals and meets the needs of British Columbians." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Does the minister not think that it would be wise, in terms of public policy, to have an examination of the public policy and an examination around the costs and benefits around those issues around the question of regionalization of police — for example, in the Lower Mainland — or on the issue of a provincial police force? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1820]
It's not in the sense, necessarily, that that's the direction you want to go but in a sense of saying to the public: "Okay. Look, we've done our due diligence here. We recognize that this is a particular opportunity point in time where we can look at how we're policed in this province, and we're going to sign a contract." And we've done the work, and it looks at this alternative, and we've done the work that's this alternative. Does the minister not think that it would be appropriate to have that work done? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Several studies have been done with respect to regional policing. I think I heard the term "regional policing" over 30 years ago when I actually got into policing. Governments, academics and others have certainly talked about it and written about regionalization. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I can tell you that a lot of municipal governments that are on contract with the RCMP have told us that they're happy with the RCMP, and that comes from areas not only within the Metro Vancouver but certainly across British Columbia and in the capital region. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Areas around fragmentation in policing — the silo approach to certain parts of policing, which tend to lead many areas across Canada and North America to look at regional police models — have been addressed by the province — for example, how we deal with the records management part of it here in British Columbia with PRIME-BC so that we can share that information and intelligence across the province, how we deal with communication systems so that there's interoperable capability through our radio systems and our dispatch services, and how we deal with serious crime around the region. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We're looking towards creating more coordination on serious crime, gang crime, organized crime from across all of British Columbia and certainly across Metro Vancouver. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: I'm going to move off this issue after I make a comment. The issue is really clear — in my mind, anyway — and that is that we are negotiating a contract with Ottawa. Most municipalities are happy with their police service — the RCMP police service and local police. Communities are often happy with theirs, but there have been a lot of questions raised. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1825]
Your former municipality of Vancouver has been very outspoken on the issue of regionalization. Other police departments have been outspoken on the issue of regionalization. It's not a question of someone being happy or if everyone is happy or if there have been studies or work done 30 years ago. What the question comes down to is the role of the province, the leadership shown by the province in saying: "We're in negotiations with Ottawa on a contract with the RCMP." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think that it would have been the right thing to do for the province to have also undertaken — the province, the ministry, to undertake — some work that looks at: "Okay, here are the alternatives that people have talked about. Here are some of the alternatives, and here has been some detailed policy work that we have in place before we embark on a final contract with the RCMP." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think that is something that would have been an extremely positive initiative and a positive piece of work to have undertaken, and I think that it would have instilled a great deal of confidence in the public in terms of what the final decision is. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I mean, it may well be that we stay with a new RCMP contract. But I think at least the work should have been done on those other issues — on regionalization or provincial police force, on those alternative models that are out there and that are discussed — so when that final decision is taken, you can say: "You know what? Here's why it's done. Here's why it makes sense." When that's not done, I think that lessens the end product. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The next question. Some of my colleagues have time, will have some questions. I'm going to take of advantage of their asking questions to get something cleared away. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But the Davies Commission report into Frank Paul. The report has a number of recommendations, and I want to know: will the ministry be implementing the recommendations contained in the report? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1830]
[H. Bloy in the chair.]
Hon. K. Heed: I did reply to you at length in writing regarding the Davies recommendations, and I really don't want to go through all of that. I just want to talk from a more global perspective. A lot of what Davies actually brought forward certainly was captured by Josiah Wood in his review and his subsequent recommendations with respect to that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
One area that I'll point out, and I pointed out in that letter that I submitted to the member and the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant, is around the independent complaint process. That's the one recommendation that we did not move forward on. It is all part of our ongoing process to review the accountability and oversight of policing here in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
R. Fleming: I want to ask a couple of questions to the Solicitor General just about policing issues in greater Victoria and in the city of Victoria in particular. The first question is around the con air Victoria program. This is a program that has received no funding this year from this ministry. I note that there was an agreement recently to supply a limited amount of funding to the city of Vancouver for their con air program. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This program has been successful in a number of instances and in a number of communities in British Columbia, mine included, and I want to ask the minister this. Does it not…? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I mean it's bad enough that in our school system parents have to fundraise for computer labs and textbooks and all the basic things in our education system. But have we really got to the point that now, to send criminals back to provinces where they are wanted on warrants, we literally have to have organizations like the Downtown Victoria Business Association hold bake sales so that criminals can be sent to places where they have evaded trial and potentially conviction for crimes that they're wanted on? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Is that the point, or will the Solicitor General review the con air program to date, see that it has been successful? Police agencies find it very cost-effective. They advocate for it. Mayors and city councillors want it. Our citizens want it. They feel that their cities are safer because of it, when violent offenders are sent back to where they're wanted. Will the Solicitor General just give the small amount of money that it has cost to run these programs and help local government and downtowns that are struggling to make their communities safer? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1835]
Hon. K. Heed: We strongly believe in the con air program. It's a very, very successful program and ensures that criminals go back to their jurisdiction and are held accountable for their offences back in those particular jurisdictions. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
These criminals do escape prosecution by fleeing to Victoria or Vancouver, which are the predominant areas in British Columbia where they seem to move to escape prosecution, so it has been a very, very successful program. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I am advised that VicPD, Victoria police department, did receive $10,000 for the con air program. I'm also aware that they were able to raise additional funds of somewhere in the area of $16,000. We have not discounted giving them more money for their particular program. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We have asked for an accounting of the moneys because we are led to believe that there still is $16,000 sitting in their particular account that they've earmarked for con air. When there is a financial need for additional funds, we've indicated to them that we would be open to their requests. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
R. Fleming: I'll move on to another question, although I would comment that when a program like this has been successful on a trial basis and organizations and business people have to contribute to it out of their own pockets and people have to literally raise money by holding fundraising lunches, that suggests to me, for an interprovincial matter, an absurd way to do policing in this province. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think it just begs the Solicitor General to go back and consider this a permanent program that has a multi-year funding commitment and that his ministry plays a role in administering, rather than passively receiving requests when the fundraised money runs dry. I think there's an obligation to take an interest in it and to help cities fund that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to ask a question about the greater Victoria victim services organization. In 2008 this ministry did a review called the ViSDA review, the Victim Service Delivery Analysis review. It was 2008. I know that was two predecessors ago, but I want to ask this Solicitor General about that, because the premise for the review was that this ministry wasn't following its own internal funding policy for victim services in greater Victoria — that the amount of funding we got for staff was based on a formula of one FTE per 86,000 citizens, that we were underfunded to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Now government, rather than acknowledge that it wasn't following its own policies, held a review. That review again confirmed that the money should be enhanced to this agency, to this volunteer group, which has a couple staff positions. We've been through the Oak Bay murders. We've seen the demand on this service in this community. This organization is tapped-out. It's burning its volunteers out. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1840]
They have been to this ministry several times. Mayors and police chiefs have pleaded the underfunding situation. Government has run out of stalling techniques, in my view. They have reviewed it. They promised they would look at it. They have a review in their possession. They're still underfunding Greater Victoria Police Victim Services, and I'm wondering if this Solicitor General is going to sit down and meet and fulfil the internal policies of his ministry and fund greater Victoria to the population level that it's entitled to run this service. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We're willing to sit down with whoever. We're willing to sit down to ensure that we have the right funding formula in place in order to look at the services that are required for that particular area. We're looking at various models. We are now one ministry that looks after, for example, the violence against women program, versus it spread out. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We want to make sure that there's a consistent delivery of services across, for example, the Victoria area. We want to ensure that the funding model addresses the needs within that particular region. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Motion approved.
The committee rose at 6:44 p.m.
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