2009
Legislative Session: First Session, 39th Parliament
HOUSE BLUES
This is a DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY of debate in one sitting of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. This transcript is subject to corrections, and will be replaced by the final, official Hansard report. Use of this transcript, other than in the legislative precinct, is not protected by parliamentary privilege, and public attribution of any of the debate as transcribed here could entail legal liability.
(HANSARD)
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 2009
The House met at 1:35 p.m.
[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]
Routine Business
Prayers.
Introductions by Members
C. James: I have three guests who I'm pleased to introduce today. Malcolm Johnstone, who is the treasurer of CineVic; Diane Searle, a media artist; and actor Dennis Eberts. They're here to show their support for investments in funding for arts and culture. Would the House please make them welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. I. Black: I'd like to welcome Genome B.C. to the House — Dr. Alan Winter, president and CEO; Dr. Tony Brooks, CFO and corporate secretary; Dr. Richard Howlett, director of business development; and Ms. Sally Greenwood, the director of communications and education. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
One of their major breakthroughs will protect some children with cancer from losing their hearing. Researchers have analyzed hundreds of variations in key genes and found that two of them are linked to deafness caused by a common chemotherapy drug. This discovery will allow doctors to modify treatment and protect these children's hearing. I would ask the House to help make them feel most welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
L. Popham: The Minister of Labour and I have something in common today. Bayside School, from his constituency, is visiting the precinct, and my son Kye goes to school there in grade 6. His whole class, his teacher Kathryn Verronneau and two assistants, Debra Butler and Sean Kenny, who are assisting the 27 students who are here visiting, are coming to have cookies in our caucus room after. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. J. Yap: I'd like members to help me welcome two special guests of mine today who are in the gallery. I see they just arrived. One is Dave Rogers. He's a good friend and constituent and active member of Rotary. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The other guest is an individual who hails from South Africa, specifically near Johannesburg, and his name is Jaco Van Schalkwyk. Mr. Van Schalkwyk is a very special individual. He's the project lead for a project called the Refilwe Community, which is providing help, assistance, health care and support for orphans and families in communities that are called temporary settlements or squatter settlements. It gives comfort to many, many thousands of people in that area. He's here as a guest of Rotary to help with some fundraising for this project, the Refilwe Project. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to ask all members of the House to welcome this great humanitarian, Mr. Jaco Van Schalkwyk, to British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
H. Lali: Visiting us here in the galleries right up above are three fine gentlemen from the community of Lillooet. They are the mayor of the district of Lillooet, Dennis Bontron; also the administrator, Grant Loyer; and Chief Bill Machell of the T'it'q'et Indian band. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
They're here since yesterday lobbying and meeting with ministers and MLAs and looking after the social and economic interests of their community of Lillooet and the surrounding area. Would the House please give them a warm welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: This year the Queen's Printer of British Columbia is celebrating its 150th anniversary. The Queen's Printer has been printing, publishing and providing an innovative service for nearly as long as the founding of the Crown colony of British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interestingly, up until the 1970s the Queen's Printer sat in this very chamber to support the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly. In the most natural and fitting of ways, the Queen's Printer has published a book on its 150th year anniversary, The Queen's Printer for British Columbia: A History from 1859 to 2009. A copy of this book will be delivered to each MLA's office today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Joining us today in the gallery are some of the staff from the Queen's Printer in the Ministry of Citizens' Services who worked on creating this book — Mr. Vern Burkhardt, the Queen's Printer for British Columbia; Dawson Brenner, the director of print services; Don Swagar, the operations manager print services; Susan Taylor, print agent; Karen Garland, in pre-press; Kim Larkin in pre-press; Leah Renihan, graphic designer; and David Duncan, research and writing. Please make them welcome here today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1340]
J. Horgan: Joining us in the precinct today is Juno award–winning recording artist Josh Finlayson of the Skydiggers. Josh was in town to back up Blue Rodeo last night. I just wanted the House to make him welcome and also, through you, hon. Speaker, to let Josh know that it's now time to turn his back on the Maple Leafs. He can let that go. Break the cycle. Break the cycle for your children, Josh. Go, Canucks, go. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
J. Thornthwaite: One of the side effects of being an MLA that I've just learned is that we are away from our family more than we would like. I just wanted to let the House know that my daughter Zoey Ann Walter is having her 11th birthday today, which I'm missing. I would hope that the House would wish her a nice, happy birthday. Happy birthday, Zoey. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
N. Macdonald: I have two guests with me here. One is Kelly Charlton. He has just moved to Victoria, and he's a special friend of — I almost feel guilty to say my daughter, who is here — Danielle Macdonald. She's joining us as well. I would like you to join me in making them both feel welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
T. Lake: It's a great pleasure for me to have in the gallery today a great friend and colleague, and a constituent of yours, Mr. Speaker — Dr. George Guernsey. Dr. Guernsey was one of the founders of Canada's first centralized veterinary hospital, right here in Victoria. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
He has contributed to the profession in many ways: as past president of the British Columbia Veterinary Medical Association and, also, as past president of the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association. He's still involved in veterinary practice around the province and now resides in Summerland, B.C. I would like the whole House to make Dr. Guernsey very welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
B. Ralston: In the gallery are a number of Canadians of Ukrainian descent who are here to witness the introduction of a bill to recognize the Holodomor. Ludmilla Weaver, Peter Zachary, Myron Pilip, Maria Pomircha, Bogdan Fedorko, Myroslav Petriw, Alexandra Ciacka, Valentyna Kaspryk, Robert Herchak, Olga Zakhariw, Ihor Stanley Osobik, Edward Kwiatkowski, Roman Brunwald and Alexander Teliszewsky. Would the House please make them all welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
R. Lee: In the gallery today we have 30 grade 10 students from the Burnaby Central Secondary School, led by their teacher Mr. Wayne Axford and two parents. The new $50.6 million Burnaby Central school is under construction right now. It will be ready to be occupied in 2011. So the students here today will be the first graduates of a brand-new school in Burnaby. Will the House please join me in giving them a very warm welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
B. Routley: I have three guests with me in the Legislature today. Rick and Penny Whiteford. Rick was a construction millwright working throughout British Columbia in almost every sawmill at one point or another. Then he was the last chairman at the Youbou sawmill, who I worked with in the union hall in Duncan for almost a decade — a tremendous friend. I'm thankful for his support. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
And his wonderful wife Penny and his delightful aunt Flora Whiteford, who is here for the first time. She's lived in Victoria, but she's delighted to be here in the Legislature and look at our beautiful building today. Please join with me in making them feel welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
J. McIntyre: I just wanted to add my voice of welcome to Dr. Alan Winter, as he's a constituent of mine. One of the very great pleasures of my job as MLA is to get to know Dr. Winter and the very, very impressive work of Genome B.C. So, welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1345]
S. Simpson: Hon. Speaker, I know that all members enjoy it when we have the opportunity to have family members come and join us here in the chamber. I'm very pleased that my sister Debbie Simpson and my nephew Kyle Simpson are here for the first time. Not only are they family, but they're also my constituents, and I have reason to believe they probably did vote for me in the last election. So if the House would make them welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I notice, in the gallery here, that an old friend of many of us on this side, Malcolm Crockett, is with us today. I'd like us to make Malcolm welcome. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
D. Routley: I would like to join the previous speaker in welcoming Malcolm Crockett to the Legislature. Malcolm put in many a day and many an hour going door to door in our constituency during this past election. He's a man of great flourish and panache. I took all of his advice very well to heart. Some of it I didn't follow. I didn't wear Hawaiian shirts to brighten up my demeanour at the door. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to thank Malcolm for his great friendship and help and have the House help me welcome him here. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Sather: I would be remiss not to also welcome my friend Malcolm here to the House. He's a longtime former resident of Maple Ridge, and we've known each other well and had many good conversations over the years. Would the House please join me as well. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Introduction and
First Reading of Bills
Bill M206 — Cosmetic Pesticide and
Carcinogen Control Act, 2009
R. Fleming presented a bill intituled Cosmetic Pesticide and Carcinogen Control Act, 2009.
R. Fleming: I move first reading of the Cosmetic Pesticide and Carcinogen Control Act. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Motion approved.
R. Fleming: Introduction of this bill enables our province to join other provinces, representing approximately 20 million Canadians, that ban the use of cosmetic pesticides in order to mitigate the threat that these toxins present to our environment, our children, pets and personal health. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The legislation is consistent with and supportive of provincial legislative reform efforts being made by the Union of B.C. Municipalities, the Canadian Cancer Society, the Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment, Toxic Free Canada and the David Suzuki Foundation. This bill is consistent with recommendations made by the World Health Organization and the International Agency for Research on Cancer. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Over 20 local governments across B.C., representing every region of the province, governing millions of our citizens, have already enacted bylaws to ban the sale of cosmetic pesticides, but these bylaws are ineffective because they lack authority over retail sale of harmful products. The Community Charter act does not give communities legislative authority to ban the sale of pesticides. Only provincial legislation can accomplish this. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Our society faces a huge potential cancer burden from exposure to hundreds of known and possible human carcinogens. The New York Academy of Sciences has found that women exposed to pesticides as children are twice as likely to have breast cancer later in their lives. Research by the Harvard School of Public Health argues that chemicals in some pesticides may be linked to lower intelligence, behavioural disorders, autism, ADHD and asthma in children, even in low-dose exposures. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Cosmetics also put at risk our food supply, and new research links pesticide runoff as a contributor to the decline in salmon returns, from damaged immune systems of our iconic B.C. fish species. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
For children and pregnant women, there are no safe levels of exposure to chemicals such as endocrine disruptors and neurotoxins. In protecting our young children, this legislation offers the promise over time of lowered cost of delivering health care services by reducing chronic disease. There is sufficient scientific evidence about the harmful effects of environmental and health effects from chemicals contained in common pesticides. We urge the government to take strong legislative action now. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day at the next sitting of the House... [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: …after today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Bill M206, Cosmetic Pesticide and Carcinogen Control Act, 2009, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.
Bill M207 — Ukrainian Famine and
Genocide ("Holodomor")
Memorial Day Act, 2009
B. Ralston presented a bill intituled Ukrainian Famine and Genocide ("Holodomor") Memorial Day Act, 2009.
B. Ralston: I move that a bill intituled the Ukrainian Famine and Genocide ("Holodomor") Memorial Day Act, 2009, be introduced and read a first time now. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Motion approved.
[1350]
B. Ralston: This bill recognizes the famine and genocide that killed millions of Ukrainians in 1932 and '33, during the period of forced collectivization in the Soviet Union. This tragedy — as many as ten million Ukrainians died, one-third of whom were children — is known as the Holodomor in the Ukrainian language. The name is derived from two Ukrainian words: holod meaning hunger, starvation or famine; and moryty, to induce suffering, to kill. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Holodomor was set in motion because the Soviet leadership at the time feared the national awakening of Ukrainians and their aspirations for cultural expression and an independent state. Survivors of the Holodomor have immigrated to British Columbia and have made a positive contribution to British Columbian society. Some of them join us in the gallery today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The government of the Ukraine; the Parliament of Canada; the governments of Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario; UNESCO; the United Nations; the United States House of Representatives and Senate; the European Parliament; and many other jurisdictions worldwide have officially condemned the Holodomor or recognized it as a genocide. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As well, by coincidence, a similar bill is being introduced today in the legislature of the province of Quebec. This bill will proclaim the fourth Saturday in November of each year Holodomor memorial day to memorialize those who perished as victims of the Holodomor. I look forward to support from both sides of the House in recognizing this tragic episode of Ukrainian history. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I move that this bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Bill M207, Ukrainian Famine and Genocide ("Holodomor") Memorial Day Act, 2009, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.
Statements
(Standing Order 25B)
PREVENTION OF
VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
L. Reid: Ten years ago the United Nations declared November 25, the date, the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. This was the date in 1960 that the three Mirabal sisters, political activists in the Dominican Republic, were assassinated on orders of Dominican ruler Rafael Trujillo. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The 20th anniversary of Ecole Polytechnique, the massacre on December 6, is also approaching — a reminder that violence against women is not just something that happens far away. It happens everywhere. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Today awareness is much higher, and we are doing more than ever to work toward the goal of ending violence against women. The last few years have seen the expansion of transition houses and greatly increased funding so that women and their children can have a safe place where they can learn to live freely again. Multicultural services and increased public outreach offer more options for women facing violence. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Women's organizations are also doing important work to raise awareness to end violence against women. One such group is the Richmond Women's Resource Centre, which works to improve the status of women in the community and society at large. They are often the first point of contact for women facing violence and refer these women to organizations such as Chimo Crisis Services. Chimo is also based in Richmond, and they operate the Nova Transition House. The work these organizations do literally saves lives. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I would like to close by mentioning that today is the first day of the white ribbon campaign, the world's largest effort by men working to end violence against women. This campaign runs from today until the sixth day of December. I encourage everyone to visit www.whiteribbon.ca to offer your support. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
SOOKE INTEGRATED HEALTH NETWORK
J. Horgan: I rise today to highlight the work being done by an important group of health practitioners in the Sooke region. The Sooke Integrated Health Network supports and improves the health and quality of life for anyone 19 years of age or over living in the Sooke region who is managing a chronic disease. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The network is a partnership between a patient, their family physician and other health care providers, which may include nurses, dietitians, pharmacists, specialist physicians and other community agencies. This team works together to support the health and chronic disease management of the patient. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
A top priority for the Sooke Integrated Health Network is to make their work as community-focused as possible, partnering with six groups to provide services to IHN clients. The local Canadian Diabetes Association provides cooking sessions. The T'sou-ke Nation offers culturally appropriate healthy-living and -eating activities. The SEAPARC leisure complex provides passes for recreational activities. The Edward Milne Community School is the location for a weight-loss program, and the Sooke Family Resource Centre provides workshops and other assistance. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
These groups provide supportive, community-based services. I want to congratulate the Sooke Integrated Health Network on having the highest utilization rate of the community support services out of the seven IHNs on Vancouver Island. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We all work better when we're working with other people — with our family members, with our colleagues — to provide positive outcomes in our community. The integrated health network is a positive achievement on Vancouver Island. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1355]
I encourage all members of the House to support primary care facilities of primary care activities like the integrated health network. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Ridge Meadows Seniors Society
M. Dalton: There's a great seniors organization that I would like to recognize this afternoon before the Legislature — namely, the Ridge Meadows Seniors Society. On October 23 the seniors society celebrated their tenth anniversary of being located in the Ridge Meadows Seniors Centre, which is owned by the city. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The society has 1,700 members and offers a vast array of programs and activities for senior citizens. About 200 volunteers make the society what it is — a centre where our elderly citizens from all over Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows can come to learn, to have fun, to eat and to participate in physical activities. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There are all types of dance clubs here, including Hawaiian, tap, clogging and Spanish flamenco. There are also table tennis, cribbage, bridge, Scrabble and carpet-bowling clubs, and there's a crafts group. There's a singing group called the Silver Tones and an acting team called the Variety Plus, which has two shows a year with three presentations, all of which fill the 250-seat room. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The seniors society offers fitness programs called gentle joint and yoga and seniors tae kwon do. There's a snooker room, a hair salon and a large workshop. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
A dozen retired nurses have clinics and take seniors' blood pressure and sugar levels and answer health questions. A volunteer optician and a pharmacist come by regularly. The restaurant serves a hundred meals a day and another 60 to 70 meals with Meals on Wheels. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This coming Sunday the society will be honouring its many volunteers. I want to publicly thank Betty Levens, the president, and every volunteer, who contribute so much to improving the lives of hundreds, even thousands, of senior citizens in Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows. They make our communities a much better place to live. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Prevention of
violence against women
K. Corrigan: It's been ten years since the United Nations General Assembly designated the 25th of November as the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. In so doing, it recognized that the "human rights of women and of the girl child are an inalienable, integral and indivisible part of universal human rights and recognizing further the need to promote and protect all human rights of women and girls." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The stated goal was clear: "An end to these inexcusable crimes — whether it is the use of rape as a weapon of war, domestic violence, sex trafficking, so-called honour crimes or female genital mutilation. We must address the roots of this violence by eradicating discrimination and changing the mindsets that perpetuate it." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
These crimes continue around the world, but we have made some progress in Canada. According to a comprehensive StatsCan record from 2006, for example, we have a reduction of spousal assault. Some of the reasons for that include increased use of services by abused women and growth of provincial and territorial domestic violence legislation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I applaud the government for restoring the cuts of $440,000 to transition houses, counselling services for women and children, and I hope that there will be a recognition of how critical these services are and funding these services are for their future as well. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to finish with a quote from Reimer. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
"We have come a long way in the past decade in acknowledging the severity of different kinds of domestic violence and abuse, yet the problem stubbornly persists…The consequences — the hurt, anger, fear, violence, injuries and exhaustion — affect all of us over generations. We need to stand beside the strangers in our community — not only our family members, friends and neighbours — as they search for a peaceful way of life. Strangers need allies too."
Bison industry in B.C.
P. Pimm: I rise today to talk about the B.C. bison industry. The bison industry is alive and well in the province of British Columbia. The B.C. bison industry is relatively small but is home for approximately 12,000 bison, or about 6.5 percent of the total bison population of Canada. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There are approximately 200,000 bison on many farms across Canada, and this number is increasing annually. Most bison ranchers are concentrated in the western provinces. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1400]
The bison population in B.C. is distributed as follows: 85 percent in the Peace River; 10 percent in the Cariboo; 3 percent in the Kootenay; and the remaining 2 percent split between the Okanagan, Lower Mainland and right here on Vancouver Island. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The B.C. Bison Association was formed by amalgamating the Peace and Interior bison associations, and they're also members of the Canadian association, which is a national organization that promotes and supports research, marketing, public awareness, food safety, quality programs and other initiatives. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I had an opportunity to attend the B.C. Bison Association's AGM recently, and it was refreshing to see such a diverse group of ranchers and to listen to the concerns they deal with on a daily basis. These ranchers have many of the same concerns that affect others in the agriculture industry, but they continue to keep their proud heads high when many would consider throwing in the towel. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The B.C. bison industry is unique in the fact that B.C. is the only province in Canada to consider bison as wildlife. As a result, all bison ranchers are required to obtain a game farm licence issued by the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands. Bison meat is extremely lean, and if you haven't tried bison, you really don't know what you've been missing. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to recommend to all of my colleagues to try the bison product, and I challenge them to help promote this great product throughout their ridings. Bison producers fall under many of the same regulatory regimes as the cattle industry, but they don't often receive the same benefits. I wish the best to the bison producers. Hopefully, together we can attain their future goals. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
PROTECTION OF
FIRST NATIONS HERITAGE SITES
M. Karagianis: I rise today to talk about shared heritage and the exceptional work of first nations citizens in my community to preserve and protect sacred places that are under threat. The middens, burial grounds and other traces of habitation that are being unearthed on our ocean shores and along creeks and rivers in British Columbia tell the story of occupation since before the pyramids. These places are our Stonehenge, our Machu Picchu — mysterious, sacred and irreplaceable. Yet they are under threat from development, from construction and even from the weather. Once they are gone, they will be gone forever. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There are Songhees First Nation leaders in my community, dedicated individuals like Cheryl Bryce and Ron Sam, who believe more must be done to protect and preserve this history. Three years ago, when ancient caves were found on Spaet Mountain, they fought to save them. But they were lost, and the caves were destroyed. Sadly, it is a story that is repeated over and over again across the province. Every time we lose a sacred site, we lose a part of ourselves. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
By standing up for first nations heritage, Cheryl and Ron are standing up for all of those who have gone before and all of those who are yet to come. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As writer Stephen Hume put it so well in a recent article: "We are all citizens of B.C. together, first nations and settler society, fused by our braided history. When we permit the desecration of important first nations sites, it is our shared heritage that we abuse and our children's legacies that we steal." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I hope the House will join me in recognizing the efforts of leaders in the archaeological community and first nation leaders like Cheryl Bryce and Ron Sam. They speak to our conscience and remind us all of the urgency that we must do better before it is too late. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Oral Questions
GOVERNMENT HANDLING
OF SECURITY BREACH INVOLVING
PERSONAL INFORMATION
C. James: Mr. Speaker, troubling details have emerged about the theft of personal information of more than 1,400 income assistance recipients. We've learned that the RCMP uncovered these files in the home of a government employee in April. They handed them over to government in May. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The victims of this theft of personal information were not informed until last week that that had happened. For seven months the government knew about the security breach and did absolutely nothing about it. My question is to the Minister of Citizens' Services. Why did his government wait seven months to tell the victims that their personal information had been compromised? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: I want to make it clear that the government takes privacy matters very seriously, and we're deeply concerned by the breach of privacy of these individuals. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I also want to tell you that when I first found out about this some few weeks ago, I immediately notified the chief information officer of the government as well as the Privacy Commissioner and called in the head of the PSA to basically implement an investigation into why, as government, we weren't notified earlier. As such, we're doing a full review of that at the present time. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1405]
Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: This is a very serious matter. These files were found in the home of an employee under investigation by the RCMP, with the help of ICBC's special investigative unit, which deals with fake drivers' licences and identity cards. These were birthdates, social insurance numbers, personal health numbers — all prime information for identity theft. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Again, my question is to the minister. I appreciate that he says he's now looking into the issue, but letters went out from his ministry to inform people. The letters went out seven months after this occurred. Again, to the minister: has he looked into why those letters came seven months later? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: First of all, I want to empathize with all of the people that have had their privacy compromised in this particular case. But the reality is that due to the fact that I wasn't notified until just some few weeks ago, it was very difficult for me to act on what I didn't necessarily know about. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That's what the investigation is all about. We're launching an investigation internally to find out exactly whether the procedures that the government has about privacy protection of individuals in government has been protected. That's what we're proposing to do. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'll commit to you today the fact that as soon as we have that information and investigation complete, we'll release that information to make certain we're clear on this and exactly what happened during that time and what should have happened. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I certainly think that British Columbians who apply for income assistance, who are required to give sensitive information, would expect that the minister would be a little more on top of this file. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
They trusted the government to protect their information. After seven months the victims get a letter from government that says: "Oh sorry. You might actually want to check your credit records." The letter didn't even tell the individuals that a breach has occurred. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Again, while I appreciate the minister is doing an investigation on what happened, I think it's important that the minister explain to these victims why the letter came out and didn't inform them that a breach had occurred when the minister says he knew. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: I want to make it clear that, first of all, I personally was very concerned by this matter when I first learned about it. But the reality is the first thing that we had to do was find out exactly what had taken place. One of the first things that I was informed of is that during the RCMP investigation, they assured government that the reality is that this information, they believe, has not been compromised. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We've sent the letter to the 1,400 individuals to ensure that they're aware of the fact that their privacy may have been breached. We've detailed in that letter exactly what information may have been breached. We flagged their Medical Services Plan. The reality is that we're taking every precaution to make certain their privacy is protected. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Simpson: Hon. Speaker, 1,400 individuals compromised by government ineptness — 1,400 British Columbians potentially put at risk because of a lack of due diligence by the B.C. Liberals. And if that isn't bad enough, we now learn that the government sat on this information for seven months without informing these people that their identities may have been put at risk. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This minister has been on the job for over five months. How are we supposed to believe he only learned about this a couple of weeks ago, and if he only learned a couple of weeks ago, who else over there knew seven months ago? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: Well, first of all, I can tell you that I only learned of this matter a few weeks ago. The reality is that I took the steps that I think were necessary in terms of asking staff as to what the government's privacy policy was in terms of a breach. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We do take this matter seriously — 1,400 people. We certainly believe that our job is to make certain that we do take that protection. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1410]
As I stated earlier, I was informed that the RCMP believe that no information was compromised. As such, there's an ongoing, unrelated investigation by the RCMP that led to this discovery. The fact is that it's my ministry's objective in the investigation to make certain we find out how the time elapsed from the time that the government first learned of this incident until the time that I was notified — as to why that lapse occurred. We'll let you know. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Simpson: Hon. Speaker, we can be assured that the RCMP didn't just come and drop the files at the front door of the Legislature. They returned those files to the government, and I'm sure they did it in a formal way. If this minister is telling us that he didn't know about this until three weeks ago, maybe the files were returned to the Minister of Housing and Social Development. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Has the Minister of Citizens' Services taken the time to ask his colleague when he got the files and why he never told this minister that this compromise had happened? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: First of all, as I said, we're deeply concerned by this, and we take this matter very seriously. The reality is that the individual that was involved in this…. We took steps immediately to suspend, investigate to make certain that we had the facts right and terminate this particular employee — the employee that is involved. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I mean, we're basically looking at the information. Anybody that is involved in this will be held accountable to make certain that…. Basically, if there's any wrongdoing, they'll be held accountable for it. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
D. Routley: This government proves yet again one of two things: its absolute untrustworthiness or its absolute incompetence. Take your pick. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It took seven months for this government to get its act together. These are the personal files of British Columbians. This is an important matter. How could any British Columbian believe that the government would find out and only seven months later the minister responsible would find out? It's incomprehensible. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Which is it, Mr. Minister? Is it incompetence in this government, or is it a lack of trustworthiness? Can British Columbians trust their government with their information? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: I just want to say that we have great confidence in the men and women that work in the public service of this government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to assure the members opposite that once we have the facts, we will make certain…. Basically, we'll make people accountable for whatever wrongdoing has been done, and we'll release the information to the opposition in this House. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
D. Routley: Well, the minister talks about the members of the public service. I don't think any of our questions have been directed at the members of the public service. Clearly, they did their job. What we are directing our questions toward is a government that has failed to manage the information, personal information, of British Columbians. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The next question of every British Columbian would be: what is the minister doing about it? What is he doing to make accountable those people who have caused this breach of personal information in British Columbia? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: I said that we had great confidence in the men and women who are charged with the responsibility of making certain that they do the job for government, making certain that they ensure some of the strictest privacy laws in the country. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1415]
The reality is that each one of them signs an oath of confidentiality, and we expect that the employees will adhere to that. As such, I said that we don't have all the facts. The reality is that when we have the facts, we will make certain…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
A. Dix: I know that the minister's first set of questions were explaining why the Premier and the government covered up information about income assistance during the election campaign. Now he is having to explain away the incompetence of the Minister of Housing. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This happened seven months ago. People have been kept in the dark for seven months. He said he learned about it two or three weeks ago. During that two or three weeks…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
A. Dix: Can the minister explain when or if he has talked to his colleague the Minister of Housing? When did the Minister of Housing learn about this breach? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: You know, I empathize with all of the individuals whose privacy has been compromised in this situation, and we as government are deeply concerned. But the reality is that we don't have all the facts. I was notified, as I told you, a few weeks ago. At that time I believe that we took the right steps as a government that protects privacy and individuals, as we should, to find out exactly where the failure occurred. The fact is that the investigation is ongoing. As soon as that has been delivered, we're prepared to share that information with the opposition. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
A. Dix: Can the minister explain…? It's a very simple question. In the three weeks that he has known about this, in the three weeks since the public affairs bureau deigned to inform him about it — according to his own comments…. Has he in those three weeks, if he is so interested, walked across the House and asked the Minister of Housing and Social Development what happened and when he knew about this breach of personal information? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: You know, I can assure the member opposite that the reality is that all of the members on this side of the House take this matter…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjection.
Hon. B. Stewart: The reality is that all of the members on this side of the House take privacy seriously. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: The reality is that one of the things we're trying to do is basically find out the facts. The Minister of Housing and Social Development and the Minister of Children and Families are very concerned as well, and they want the facts. But the investigation is ongoing. Once we have that information, we're quite happy to share it — as well as the RCMP investigation that's unrelated — when it's concluded. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
J. Kwan: My question to the minister is this. Did he talk to his colleague the Minister of Housing when he found out there was such a breach? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: You know, of course, originally when this first came out, my priority was the concern for the privacy of the individuals that had their privacy compromised. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As I have explained before, the fact is that the chief information officer, myself and the head of the Public Service Agency sat down, met and reviewed as to how we were going to proceed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Obviously, one of the first things that we wanted to do was find out some of the facts that we'd only just recently been told about. The reality is that we launched an investigation, notified the Privacy Commissioner's office and took steps to make certain that the other ministries were informed of the privacy breach. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Does the member have a supplemental? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
J. Kwan: Seven months ago people's private information was breached. The public affairs bureau told the minister. The minister found out. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1420]
Did the minister in that period take the time to talk to his colleague, the lead minister, whose clients' information had been breached and financial security may well be in jeopardy because of this breach? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Can the minister just get up and answer this question clearly. Did he take the time to talk to his colleague, the Minister of Housing, about this breach and to see what action he is taking to ensure that his clients' privacy information is protected? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: I can tell the member opposite that we are very proud of the fact that we have some of the strongest privacy laws in the country. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Continue, Minister. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. B. Stewart: I just want to reiterate the fact that we take the matter of privacy very seriously, and the men and women of the Public Service Agency are deeply committed to making certain that they administer it. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It's our intention to make certain that we fully investigate this matter and find out exactly where these issues have gone wrong, and we're prepared to act on whatever is necessary to make certain…. The fact is, that if there was any violation of the law, they will be held fully accountable. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
IMPACT OF OLYMPIC SECURITY
ON AIRPORTS AND BUSINESSES
H. Bains: In the spring we heard from rural British Columbians about the impact of Olympic security on rural airports. Now we find out that at Boundary Bay Airport, the air traffic restrictions have been increased from two to eight weeks. This will have a profound impact on the businesses that operate out of Boundary Bay. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Can the minister responsible for the Olympics tell us today in this House what is being done to ensure that those businesses aren't being hurt by Olympic security measures? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: The Integrated Security Unit and the RCMP are working in conjunction with several agencies across British Columbia to ensure that we have safe games. Part of that is to review the aviation we have around the games during games time, before and after the games time. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The integrated security services unit is working with the people that are going to be affected, the areas in British Columbia that are going to be affected, number one, because of the security rules. We want to ensure that we do whatever we can to have the safest games here in British Columbia, and we are working with communities, we are working with groups to ensure that that takes place. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Speaker: The member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
H. Bains: The Professional Flight Centre at Boundary Bay will lose 75 percent of its revenue because of these measures. They will lose students. Many of them are from outside of Canada, and once they leave them, they will never get them again. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In a letter, the centre's president, John Montgomery, says this: "The truth of the matter is that once this two-month shutdown period is over, it's going to take a long time to build up a student clientele again." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My question, again, is to the minister responsible for the Olympics: will the minister commit today to work with these small businesses to offset the impacts that these security changes will have? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: The 2010 Integrated Security Unit is working with all stakeholders to minimize inconvenience and to work out solutions for these communities so that we can not have disruptions and that we can carry on with business. But at the same time, we want to ensure that we have safe games for the visitors to British Columbia, the spectators, the athletes and all those around British Columbia that want to see the games and celebrate with us as we move forward on these great Olympic Games. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1425]
K. Corrigan: Well, apparently, now we have four Olympic ministers, and absolutely none of them are accountable. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Olympic spirit shouldn't mean that businesses have to shut down. Business owners are lying awake worrying about their very long-term viability. John Montgomery says: "We are effectively paying a huge personal price for the Olympic Games coming to Vancouver and, in fact, may not survive it." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Will the Minister of State for the Olympics commit today to taking some real steps to ensure these businesses are not paying the price for your government's poor planning? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: This is the largest security event in Canada's history. We have more coordination of resources involved in ensuring this remains a safe and secure games for all to enjoy. We are working with communities. We are working with stakeholders that will be affected by this. We want to make sure that, at the end of the day, we have solutions that work for them but solutions to ensure that we have a safe and secure games here in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
K. Corrigan: It's the height of hypocrisy. Everyone is supposed to be benefiting from these games, but this government's actions are killing businesses. The Professional Flight Centre is expecting to lay off staff, and they are genuinely worried that some of those staff will leave and not come back. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In his letter, Mr. Montgomery says: "It is not a lot of fun walking around my house at 3 a.m. worrying about this. In short… [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
K. Corrigan: …we're going to be drastically affected. There's no other way to say it." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Businesses like this are worried about their very survival. When will the minister do what's right and ensure that businesses like the Professional Flight Centre aren't severely harmed by changes to Olympic security measures? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: In 79 days the world will see all that B.C. has to offer. We want the world to come to British Columbia and to be safe and secure. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Vancouver 2010 Integrated Security Unit is working in coordination with several of the other agencies out there. They've formed steering committees not only within local governments and within our government but with the federal government to ensure that, at the end of the day, we deliver the best games possible for all of the world to celebrate. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Member for Port Coquitlam. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: Thank you, hon. Speaker. Depending on the answer we get, there may be time for an awful lot more questions. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Now, the Solicitor General has just stood up in this House and said that this is one of the largest security efforts in Canadian history. Well, one would assume, then, that he's learned from other major security efforts in our nation, such as the G8 in Kananaskis and the G8 that was held in Quebec City. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In both those jurisdictions, when those major international security events took place, airspace was restricted and the businesses operating in those airspaces were compensated and made whole and did not suffer a loss as a result of the security exercise. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Given that you're supposed to have learned from those events, will you commit today in this House that those businesses that are being shut down and inconvenienced because of the security around the airspace will be kept whole, as they were in Kananaskis and as they were in Quebec City? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: I was on the ground at Kananaskis. I saw the great security that was in place to ensure the security of the world leaders. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1430]
There will be an Olympic control area around the Vancouver games. As with any major international event, such as what took place in Kananaskis, there will be aircraft that will be prohibited from entering and leaving the particular areas. There are security planners that are in place dealing with this right now. We recognize that this will have an impact on the aviation industry and communities. That's why we are working with them for solutions — so we can move forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: The solution was clear in Kananaskis. They kept those businesses whole. The solution was clear in Quebec City. They kept those businesses whole. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The solution is staring the minister in the face. Make sure those businesses that are impacted by the closure of the airspace are not financially impacted. Give them the same solution that was done in other international conferences, and make them whole. Will the minister commit to doing that? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: We are working with the stakeholders that are affected. We are working with them. We have committees in place to talk about solutions together, not to reach ends right now. We want to work with them to make sure…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Number one, our priority is to make sure we have the safest and most secure games. When you have such a large event anywhere, there are going to be security precautions that it's incumbent upon us to make sure take place. The Integrated Security Unit is doing their due diligence to make sure it takes place, but on the other end, they're working with the communities. They're working with the stakeholders that will be affected to ensure, at the end of the day, that we have a lot to be proud of, that we delivered the best and most secure and safe games for everyone to enjoy. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
K. Conroy: Mr. Speaker, that's just not true, because they are not working with the smaller airlines in rural B.C. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It's not just the flight schools that are suffering; it is those smaller airlines like Pacific Coastal. They are seeing significant challenges in rural B.C. They're committed to the communities they serve. They want to keep providing the services, and they are not finding those solutions. There are no solutions coming from this government, so what is the minister talking about? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Perhaps the Minister of State for the Olympics might know the solutions. Maybe she can let us know: what are they doing to help the organizations like Pacific Coastal deal with these solutions and make sure that rural B.C. is getting the service it needs? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. K. Heed: Aviation security, security planners, stakeholders such as the airlines that operate in these communities have been consulted for over two years. We are working with them. We will continue to work with them, because in 79 days we are going to celebrate here in British Columbia with the best Olympic Games ever. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[End of question period.]
Reports from Committees
J. Les: I have the honour to present the report of the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services for the first session of the 39th parliament, representing the 2010 budget consultation process. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I move that the report be taken as read and received. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1435]
Motion approved.
Petitions
N. Macdonald: I stand to present a petition from Columbia River–Revelstoke, almost 600 names signed on a petition to stop the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Karagianis: I have a petition to present. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Proceed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Karagianis: I have a petition with 2,218 names on it asking the government to maintain the EIBI program, early intensive behavioural intervention, for autistic children. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
H. Bains: I rise to present a petition. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Proceed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
H. Bains: I have over 700 signatures on a petition from Surrey asking this government to scrap their plans to implement the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
B. Routley: I have a petition from constituents in the Cowichan Valley, 569 signatures in opposition to the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Sather: I seek leave to present a petition. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Proceed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Sather: I have signatures of 1,070 petitioners in Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows calling on the government to scrap the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Tabling Documents
Hon. B. Stewart: I think in the most natural and fitting of ways, the Queen's Printer published the book on the 150-year history of the Queen's Printer for British Columbia, and I'd like to present a copy to the House. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Thank you, Minister. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Orders of the Day
Hon. G. Abbott: In Committee A, I call…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Hon. G. Abbott: Well, thank you very much. All that heckling is paying off, clearly, with the opposition. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In Committee A, Mr. Speaker…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Abbott: In Committee A, the estimates of the Ministry of Education. In this chamber, the continuing estimates of the Office of the Premier. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1440-1445]
Committee of Supply
ESTIMATES: OFFICE OF THE PREMIER
(continued)
The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); L. Reid in the chair.
The committee met at 2:46 p.m.
The Chair: I would take this opportunity, hon. Members, to caution against the repetitive nature of debate. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
On Vote 10: Office of the Premier, $11,535,000 (continued).
C. James: I want to start off this afternoon to take a look at the Premier's service plan and some of the particular areas in the Premier's service plan. I'd just like to read from that plan a couple of key points. This comes from the Premier's update '09-10 and '11-12. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It says that the Office of the Premier "articulates government's goals, commitments and priorities and works with ministries and Crown agencies to ensure communication of these goals, commitments and priorities and to track and monitor implementation of them." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We know that one of the government's goals and priorities, as outlined, is the HST. So I'd like to start this section by talking about the HST — to go through with the Premier the information around the HST and to again come back to the Premier's service plan, where he talks about his responsibility in articulating government's goals, commitments and priorities, and talk about how that relates to the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to just start off by reminding the Premier what he and his party chose to make their public position on the HST during the election. I'll just read it out. Here's what the B.C. Liberal Party presented as its position in answer to a specific question that came from the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
"While some British Columbians have suggested that a harmonized PST and GST might be beneficial, others have pointed out that it would extend the PST tax base to a broader range of goods and services that are presently exempt from the provincial sales tax….
"The B.C. Liberals are also mindful that a harmonized GST would reduce the provincial government's ability to unilaterally adjust sales tax rates. The harmonized GST would make it harder for future provincial governments to lower or raise sales taxes, which in fact reduces flexibility.
"In short, a harmonized GST is not something we are contemplating in the B.C. Liberal platform, but we are committed to improving the tax system."
Just to remind the Premier, that was the B.C. Liberal response to the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My question is to the Premier. Would the Premier agree that this election pledge in fact gave the restaurant industry and other British Columbians comfort that his government would not introduce the HST? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: If I might, hon. Member. This does not have a bearing on the administration of the Office of the Premier. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Related specifically to the Premier's accountability statement, the Premier's office "articulates government's goals, commitments and priorities and works…to ensure communication of these goals." That is the responsibility from the Premier's office. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1450]
Communication of the HST is one of the critical goals of government. So my question again is to the Premier. Would the Premier agree that the election pledge, given during the election campaign, gave assurances to the public and to the restaurant association that the government would not be implementing the HST — and therefore impacted his government's ability, according to his service plan, to be able to communicate the goal around the HST? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: Again, to the Leader of the Opposition: questions pertaining directly to the HST would have been more properly put to the Ministry of Finance during the Finance estimates. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: To try and clarify this matter, this was an answer that was provided by our party during the election. It did reflect the position of the government at the time. It also, I think, highlights a number of areas we were concerned about that we felt had been mitigated. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In fact, it's going to be a future tax policy. It's something that I would suggest will be appropriate to discuss in next year's activities with regard to what we're trying to do. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There's no question that the HST is going to strengthen our economy. One of the things we were clear about during the campaign is that we had every intention to strengthen our economy as it came out of this economic downturn. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The service plan, I think, speaks for itself. We have to ensure that we are delivering on the commitments that British Columbians expect, that the public service is doing its job, and I think it has been doing its job. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Will the Premier agree that the HST is one of his government's goals? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1455]
Hon. G. Campbell: I think it is clear that creating a strong economy for British Columbians that creates jobs is a critical goal for our government. It was itemized in the five great goals. It's something that we have pursued over the last number of years while we've been in government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It is important to note that there are a number of tax policies that help us do this. We believe the HST is one of those. It will strengthen our economy with the renewed flexibility that we have. It's obviously going to strengthen our economy. As many people are aware, it is the single most important thing we have been informed by leading economists across the country that we can do to strengthen the economy, to strengthen investment, to encourage job creation, to make us more productive and more competitive. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Making sure that we have a stronger economy as we come out of this economic downturn is clearly one of the government's goals. There are a whole range of activities that take place around that goal and that endeavour. Clearly, a competitive tax regime that encourages investment and encourages job creation is an important part of that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Using the Premier's description of the HST as the single most important thing that this government could do for the economy, wouldn't the Premier agree that if this was the single most important thing that could be done, perhaps he should have given an opportunity to the public to be able to make a decision, knowing the government was going ahead with the HST? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: I think the Minister of Finance has reviewed in some detail the steps that were taken with regard to the HST. All of those steps were after the election. I do think it's important to note that in this particular budget that we're discussing today…. We have identified in our strategic plan that we have an agreement with the federal government, which allows us to have the flexibility that we were concerned about. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It actually also provides for additional resources to try and support health and education as we go through this period of time. I think it is important to note that in protecting the health and education funding and actually being able to use those bridge dollars…. Those are important, but it's also important to note that we said throughout the campaign that we wanted to make sure our economy was stronger when we came out of this downturn as opposed to being static. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1500]
As we looked at building that strength, and when we discovered what was taking place with regard to added flexibility, additional resources for transition funds that would come from the federal government, plus the fact that Ontario was going to move to adopt the HST, frankly, I think most of us in government felt we would be at an economic disadvantage were we not to act, and act immediately. We've stated that time and time again. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We would have been at a competitive disadvantage with Ontario for any major investment decisions that were being made. We did not want to put British Columbians at a competitive disadvantage, particularly when we had run in a campaign saying that we expected our economy to come out of this even stronger. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We wanted to be more competitive, and I think it's clear that the HST initiative will make our industries more competitive. It will create one of the best investment climates in this country, certainly, with what we currently have — a better investment climate than either Ontario, in terms of marginal tax dollars or marginal tax costs, or Alberta. Those are two major competitors that we have in Canada. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think it's really important to note that there are thousands and thousands — in fact, over a million — of British Columbians that depend on competitive resource industries like forestry, like mining, like energy, like the many businesses that are represented by the chamber of commerce, all of whom in the past had said that they felt that they wanted the government to adopt an HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We were not ready to consider that. In fact, we did not consider that in our budget process in spite of the fact that year in and year out during budget consultations, it had been advocated by many of those same groups. It was clear, I think, that we did not feel there was the kind of flexibility necessary to have a made-in-B.C. tax regime. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
With the agreement that we have reached with the federal government, it is possible to have a made-in-British-Columbia tax regime. It is possible to have the lowest HST in the country. It is possible to either raise that HST or lower that HST after two years. The decision-making is in the hands of the provincial government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It was possible for us to look at how we would tailor the 5 percent of the HST universe that we would make sure was not going to be included in HST. All of those gave us the level of flexibility that we felt we could move forward with, in view of the fact that we were going to encourage investment, job creation, competitiveness and productivity in the province. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Again, when the forest industry comes and says, "This is the most important single step you could take for our industry"; when you hear the mining industry say, "It's the most important step you could take for our industry"; and when you hear the same thing from the energy industry, from transportation, from construction — almost $2 billion of economic benefits across the province — I think it was incumbent upon us to act in the best interests of British Columbians in the long term. That's what the government has done. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I would have also thought that the Premier would have presumed that being open and transparent was also important and that the millions of people in British Columbia actually had the right to be able to have full information about the government moving on what the Premier himself says is one of the most important measures that can be taken. Yet that didn't happen, as we know. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I just want to ask the Premier to come back to the comments that were made by his party during the election. I just want to come back again to ask the Premier whether he still agrees with the party's position that they put out during the election — that the HST adds a tax to a broader range of goods and services that are presently exempt from a provincial sales tax. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: I would ask the member to bring her questions in line with consideration of defraying the expenses for the Office of the Premier. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: The short answer is: yes, it does. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: The Premier says he agrees with that election position, which was that a broader range of goods and services that are presently exempt from the provincial sales tax…. If that's so, if the Premier agrees with that statement and continues to agree with that statement, then I would ask the Premier why he's moving forward with the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1505]
Hon. G. Campbell: I will go back and review some of the things that we believe are important. First of all, this move will reduce British Columbia's marginal effective tax rate by 40 percent, below Ontario and below Alberta. The overall tax burden on British Columbia investments will be the second lowest in Canada. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
By reducing input costs and actually having a transparent tax regime, we believe that consumers will save money over time. More importantly, we believe that our economy will be strengthened, throughout the economy. The entire economy benefits from investment, from economic growth and from people having jobs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So when you see that there are substantial economic benefits, considering about $1.9 billion of benefits to the economy — $880 million in the construction industry, one of our primary industries in this province that drives economic growth; $140 million from manufacturing; $210 million in the transportation industry; $140 million in the forest industry; $80 million in mining and oil and gas industry…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
When you know that there is approximately $150 million of compliance costs that will be removed and when you see that on top of that, British Columbia has the ability to set our HST at the lowest level in Canada, when you have the flexibility to adjust that HST over time…. It will be set at 12 percent for two years, but following that, it can be increased by whatever percent or reduced by whatever percentage. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We believe this is a decision that will strengthen our economy, as we said we would do; that will make us more competitive, as we've always strived to be; and that will provide for increases in productivity, reduction in greenhouse gases. There are a number of direct benefits that will result from the fact that we are adopting the HST. We will continue to pursue those benefits and continue to inform the public with regard to those. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think it's a critically important step to take in view of the flexibility that we were able to obtain from the federal government in moving ahead with the harmonized sales tax. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Given the description that the Premier gave — that he believes this tax will do so many things in British Columbia…. I do note that the Premier left out all the impacts of the HST, but I'll get to those as we're going along. He described it as the single most important thing that could be done. Doesn't the Premier believe that he should have given the public a choice about the HST — told the public during the election campaign that the HST was going to be introduced and given the public an informed choice? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1510]
Hon. G. Campbell: Let me reiterate that during the election campaign, we had no intention of dealing with the HST. In fact, it was not on our menu of actions that we would be taking because, as I've mentioned, there was not the flexibility. At least, we were not aware of the flexibility that later came, that we later learned about. So it was not there — right? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What we did say in the campaign, though, quite clearly, was that we intended to work to make sure that we would rebuild our economy, that we would be sure we kept British Columbia's economy going strong and that we would be competitive and productive. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Following the election, the Minister of Finance did meet with federal officials. There was a huge amount of flexibility that was built in that allowed us to do a number of things, which would have been critical to us at any rate. I think flexibility is critical. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We can set our own HST rate. That's why we actually have the lowest HST rate in Canada. Within the agreement that we have, we can exempt up to 5 percent of the HST product base. That included things like motor fuels, where this government decided that we were going to have a carbon tax that we were going to put in place, to put an actual price on carbon emissions. We decided on that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Clearly, with HST, if we didn't have that level of flexibility, we would not have gone forward with that. So when the Minister of Finance discovered the flexibility that was built in, the long-term flexibility that was included, and when he considered the literally thousands of jobs that potentially could be created by a more competitive tax regime, we felt that was an important initiative for us to undertake. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In fact, as I've said, British Columbians…. Or at least, in terms of the Finance Committee of the Legislature, over a number of years people had advocated the adoption of an HST. Why did they advocate it? Because they saw, number one, that there were significant compliance costs that they were faced with every year. Small businesses, the chamber of commerce, the agriculture industry in B.C. and the forest industry — all of them representing literally hundreds of thousands of workers — had said that it was an important initiative for us to undertake. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
With the flexibility, with the agreement we were able to sign with the federal government, we felt we had a tailor-made, made-in-British-Columbia decision, that we actually could deliver on the commitments we had made to British Columbians that they would have a more competitive economy, a more productive economy and less impact on the environment. All of those things, including the thousands of jobs, are encouraged by the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: Members, Standing Order 61 clearly provides that debate in Committee of Supply must be strictly relevant to the item or vote under consideration. The vote today under consideration is Vote 10, the expenses of the Office of the Premier. HST was canvassed extensively in the Ministry of Finance estimates. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Considering that the HST agreement…. The Premier himself has said that the HST agreement was signed with the federal government, was negotiated with the federal government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Premier has talked about the fact that the HST was announced this year. The Premier was part of that announcement, and I certainly feel, as he's continued on answering questions around the HST, that this is one of the government's — as is said in the Premier's office, of the Premier's statement — goals and objectives, the HST. Therefore, the Premier's office is directly involved in this announcement around the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Therefore, I'd like to ask the Premier…. He mentioned that there is flexibility around the HST. Well, I think the Premier's definition of flexibility and mine and this side of the House's and the public's definition of flexibility might be very different. To me, 5 percent exemptions do not seem like flexibility around using the tax system. In fact, 5 percent exemptions take away the ability for the tax system to be used for the purpose of British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think it's interesting. The Premier mentioned that there were a number of people who spoke in favour of the HST, but even the Finance Committee in 2008, in their report to the government, said that the government should review the HST with a specific caveat to do so with a view to ensure that there will be no negative impact on consumers nor on government's capacity to use the sales tax for public policy purposes. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to ask the Premier why he didn't listen to the advice of the Finance Committee in their 2008 report, because it's very clear that 5 percent exemptions do not give the flexibility for government to be able to use the sales tax as a public policy tool. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1515]
Hon. G. Campbell: I will be guided by the Chair, but let me just respond quickly with regard to the government's strategy with regard to this, with the issue of how we build a strong economy. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Yes, we have reached an agreement with the government of Canada, and we intend to pursue that because, as I've mentioned, it creates enormous opportunities for job creation in the fundamental industries of our province. It had been advocated for a number of years to the parliamentary Finance Committee. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think it's also important to note, though, that even in the budget we have passed that was, I'm sure, canvassed with the Minister of Finance during the Finance Ministry's estimates, there are a number of steps we have taken to try and reflect the spirit of the recommendations that have come through from the legislative Finance Committee that she refers to. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
For example, the province is going to provide a rebate for residential energy — oil, electricity, natural gas or propane used to heat or power a home. That's a provincial tax strategy. It had nothing to do with whether we were allowed to do it. We could make that decision as a provincial government. That's how we're going to do it. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We also provided for a significant $230-a-year credit for low-income individuals which will benefit over one million people in the province. We also decided that we were going to raise the personal tax exemptions that people had. All of those are ways that you can actually provide for a long-term, stronger economy. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Just in closing with regard to my comments with regard to this, when you think about the organizations that have said that this is a critically important thing.... [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
B.C. Chamber of Commerce: "This measure saves business money…reduces government expenditures while providing protection for those on low income. In addition to these savings, the consumer will also be a winner, as business will pass the savings on they make, such as $150 million annually in compliance costs alone, onto consumers in the form of lower prices." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Coast Forest Products Association: "Those regions that have introduced a value-added tax like the HST see increases in productivity and investment…for our industry, that means levelling the playing field with our competitors and providing us with an opportunity to invest in and maintain wealth-creating, high-paying jobs." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Retail Council of Canada: "Harmonization will result in a simpler, more efficient tax system for B.C. businesses. This will help smaller retailers in particular, who find administering two separate tax systems difficult and costly." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There are a number of them. As we move to make the decision with regard to the HST, we continue to encourage input from the public on how we can mitigate any challenges they face. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1520]
There is no question that we have given up some flexibility. The world is not exactly as it was before. In British Columbia it will be more competitive; it will encourage more investment; it will create more jobs; it will encourage the forest industry; it will encourage the mining industry; it will help small business. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
All of those things are changing as a result of that. All of those things, I suggest, will allow our economy to come out of this downturn even stronger, which was one of the fundamental commitments we made as a government in the election. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: We know that the Premier, as Premier, is directly involved in decisions made by government and certainly in decisions such as this, which the Premier calls the single most important thing that could be done. So could the Premier tell me when he approved the HST? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: Obviously, not just the Premier but cabinet was informed about the discussions and the negotiations that had taken place between the Minister of Finance in British Columbia and the Ministry of Finance at the federal level. It was a cabinet decision that was made in the middle of July of 2009. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Just continuing on, then. The Premier says that the cabinet decision was made in July. The Finance Minister has said that he knew about the HST by the end of May. Could the Premier tell me what conversations he had with the Finance Minister at the end of May about the HST? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: I had a number of discussions with the Minister of Finance once he commenced having discussions with federal officials around the end of May. Those were ongoing discussions right up through to the cabinet's decision. It might have been, you know…. I don't know the number. I had a number of discussions with them, I'm sure. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I think these are very important questions, and I recognize that the Premier says he doesn't remember. But I think this is very important for the public, because the public was told during the election campaign that there was no HST. After the campaign, until the middle of summer, there was absolutely no word about the HST. So I think that, for very good reason, the public is questioning where the information came from, what discussions had occurred previously, and why they weren't told about this major regressive tax shift that was going to occur in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1525]
Just to ask a few more specifics, then, of the Premier. As has been said, the Finance Minister said that by the end of May he knew that the HST was on the table. He started having discussions. The Premier said that he had a conversation with the Finance Minister. Could he tell me, the timeline between May and mid-July of the cabinet meeting, what kind of discussions were going on? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: Again, I will remind the members that Standing Order 61 clearly provides that debate in Committee of Supply must be strictly relevant to the item or vote under consideration, and debate will not be allowed to canvass details associated with other ministries. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: As I mentioned, there were a number of discussions. The Minister of Finance had his initial discussions at the end of May. He reported back on some of his progress to me as we went through that. The decision was made by the cabinet, and very quickly after the cabinet made that decision, it was made known to the public. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think what's really important is that the public does know, and we identified at the time, that we felt that we were acting to keep the economy strong, to actually make it stronger as we went forward, to reduce our marginal effective tax rates in British Columbia. That would encourage job creation so that we could come out of this economic downturn as a place where investment would be attracted, where jobs would be created and where we would generate the resources necessary to support our public services through what I think is unquestionably one of the most challenging economic times we've faced in the province in almost 30 years. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Madam Chair, thank you for your cautions. I appreciate them, and that's why I'm staying focused on the Premier and the Premier's office — which is part of these estimates — and what the Premier was involved in around the HST, what discussions were being had and what staff were involved in the HST, which is directly related to the Premier's office. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Premier mentioned that he had discussions with the Minister of Finance at the end of May around the HST. Did the Premier ask the Finance Minister to talk to the federal government about the HST? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1530]
[C. Trevena in the chair.]
Hon. G. Campbell: Let me read from the Ministry of Finance estimates that concluded a couple of days ago, hon. Chair. The opposition Finance critic asked the Finance Minister: "And the minister then initiated that discussion post-election — so beginning in this fiscal year in May, at the end of May 2009. Is that the minister's position?" [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Minister of Finance: "The very first indication that anyone in the federal government would have had that British Columbia was reconsidering its previous position on HST was a comment I made to the federal Finance Minister during a break in the deliberations of the Finance ministers' meeting that was held in Meech Lake at the end of May. It was only subsequent to that that there were discussions that commenced at the officials level." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Just to come back to the Premier, I understand the conversations the Finance Minister has said that he's had with the federal government, and he mentioned the end of May date. But I just come back, again, to the Premier and the Premier's office and how they were involved in this decision to ask the Premier whether he asked his Finance Minister to have those discussions with the federal government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: As I mentioned during our discussions yesterday, I had asked our Minister of Finance to look at ways that we could meet our budget projections of a $495 million deficit. Our deputy ministers were examining all of the options that were available to them. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Minister of Finance raised that issue with regard to the federal minister. As he was going to the federal ministry, he informed me that he thought that would be a responsible thing to do. I said: "Fine. You're going to the Finance Ministry. Find out what's taken place with regard to the negotiations between the federal government and Ontario." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I want to make sure that I have the Premier's dates and times accurate. So the Premier is saying that he did have a conversation with the Finance Minister before the end of May about the HST as one of the options to address the deficit issue. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: There were many, many options that were considered, but one of the things that the Finance Minister felt was important was that he could canvass the situation with regard to Ontario. He felt that in light of the situation we had, we were going to be at a significant competitive disadvantage with regard to Ontario as we came out of this economic downturn. I said: "Feel free to ask what's taken place with regard to that." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In no way was a decision made. In no way was there any kind of detailed discussion. The point was that yes, find out what they're reaching in terms of an agreement between the federal government and Ontario and see whether or not that would apply to British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: So the Premier is saying that the HST was on the table for discussion before the end of May. The Finance Minister went to Ottawa, had the discussion at Meech Lake, as he said, to have the discussion around the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Could the Premier tell me when that discussion occurred between him and his Finance Minister before the meeting where the Finance Minister discussed this with the federal government? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1535]
Hon. G. Campbell: Again, let me reiterate that. The Minister of Finance, as he mentioned during his estimates this week, informed the federal government, through the Minister of Finance, that British Columbia was reconsidering its previous opposition to the HST. It was a comment he made to the federal minister during a break. Only when that notification had been made were our officials in a position where they could even start to discuss it. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We were considering that among many, many other things. It was a reconsideration; it wasn't a decision. It wasn't: yes, we're going to do it. It was: what's the status in terms of the situation with Ontario, and how does that apply to the concerns that we've had with regard to flexibility, etc.? We couldn't even launch into that discussion, we didn't feel, at the officials level until we'd informed the federal Minister of Finance that that was taking place. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Again, just because the Premier has said that he had discussions before the Finance Minister went off to that meeting to discuss a range of options to deal with the $495 million deficit…. The Premier has stated that here. He said he discussed a range of options. He said he included the HST as part of that range of options. Could the Premier just clarify that with me? He's shaking his head, so I just want to make sure I've got that correct. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Premier did say earlier that he had discussed a range of options. Was the HST part of the discussion of that range of options with the Finance Minister before he went off at the end of May, and what was the date that those discussions occurred with the Finance Minister? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: I would like to remind the member that much of this has been canvassed in debate yesterday and that the member is becoming repetitious in her argument and to bear this in mind when continuing the questioning. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: If I can clarify, if there was any confusion, I was referring back to yesterday. This was before I had even thought about the HST as being a potential solution. I said to our officials, when I had the report from our officials on May 14: "Look at how we can meet our financial objectives that we set in the February budget. Yes, this is challenging, but we want to try and meet our budget projections of a $495 million deficit." That was an important initiative. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
At the end of May, prior to the Minister of Finance going to what was a scheduled Finance ministers' meeting, he said that he thought that we should be reconsidering our position with regard to HST. He mentioned that, as he said during his estimates, to the federal Minister of Finance during a break in the deliberations of the Finance ministers' meeting that was held at Meech Lake at the end of May. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1540]
Only subsequent to that did we start to see what the federal arrangements were with the province of Ontario and how they might have direct impact on it. He did say to me, "I think that we should at least consider this," and I said: "Well, find out what's going on, and then we'll decide whether we're going to really consider it or not. But if we don't have the facts, we won't be able to consider it." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Just continuing on the HST as we did yesterday. We canvassed the budget. We canvassed the May 14 budget meeting. We're now specifically going into the HST — issues around the HST and the Premier's involvement and the Premier's office's involvement around the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As the Premier has said, he had a discussion around options with the Finance Minister before the end of May. The announcement, as we know, around the HST did not come out until July 23. I would ask the Premier what kind of discussions were going on then, in those 53 days. And why did the Premier wait for those 53 days before we saw the announcement come out from the Premier around the HST? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: Again, in looking at how this took place, I think it was important for us to know what was being done between the federal government and Ontario. It was important for us to know what was possible. It was important for us to know what the framework was. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This was a very deliberative process. It took a significant amount of time. As I mentioned earlier, we made the cabinet decision in the middle of July. There's a whole range of issues that you have to consider as you do these sorts of things. The first thing is you have to find out whether or not the agreement between the federal government and Ontario was in any way applicable to British Columbia, what position that would put us in. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We had a number of decisions to make. These were cabinet decisions. They were led by the Minister of Finance. He reported to the cabinet, and the cabinet had many deliberations on it with regard to the pros and cons, the pluses and the minuses, of making a change of this nature. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1545]
C. James: The Premier mentions the Ontario agreement. Just a reminder that the Ontario agreement was in place in March, and I would imagine that there would have been information from Finance officials. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But just to go back and take a look at the analysis, the Premier said there were a number of things that it was important to know as they came to the agreement. I do have to point out that I also believe it was important that the public had a right to know that this was a critical issue coming forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It's very clear. In taking on a major tax change such as this, you would imagine that there would be extensive analysis done, extensive reviews done. The Premier certainly, who is known for getting involved in policy issues, would have looked at the pros and cons, would have looked at the studies and the analysis to back up the decision to take a look at imposing the HST on the province. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to ask the Premier what kind of analysis he used and was given to be able to come forward with the HST on July 23. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: Let me refer again to the estimates of Finance, the committee that concluded this week. The Finance critic for the opposition asked: [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
"Is the minister saying that from January, when Mr. McGuinty first publicly said that, until the end of May, after the election, he took no steps to begin to analyze or formulate a position on behalf of the British Columbia government?"
The Minister of Finance answers: [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
"Over the years that HST has been encouraged in Canada, the province of British Columbia — certainly in this government — has looked at it in advance of every budget. It's certainly one of the subjects that comes up, and the decision was made that we would not pursue the harmonized sales tax for a variety of reasons which we've discussed publicly.
"As I've mentioned to the member, I was not aware of the consultation process that the Ontario government had initiated. It's actually interesting. I've gone back and done a search of all of the B.C. news media outlets, and there's absolutely no reference in any British Columbia news media of that consultation process. Quite frankly, I'm not a regular reader of the Toronto Star, and I don't intend to become one."
That's a little harsh. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
"In terms of the British Columbia media that I read on a regular basis and watch and listen to, there was absolutely no discussion of that consultation. As far as ministry officials were concerned, they knew the position we as a government had taken when we had previously been encouraged to look at the HST was that we were not going to go down that road. That was the policy decision that stood until such time as we reopened that consideration in the middle of May."
C. James: I'd just like to read goal No. 5 from the Office of the Premier, the Premier's service plan update. Goal No. 5 reads: "Cabinet and cabinet committees are able to make timely and well-informed decisions." The objective 5.1 says that cabinet and its committees are supported with timely and effective advice. One of the strategies of the Premier in goal No. 5 is to support cabinet committees by ensuring they have "appropriate advice on key policy, program and legislative initiatives," including an ability to measure the success of these initiatives. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to ask the Premier what new analysis he or his office did to meet goal No. 5 as identified here in his service plan. What new analysis was done from the time period after the election until the Premier signed off at that cabinet meeting on the HST? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1550]
Hon. G. Campbell: I think that actually in hearing the question, it's clear that analysis was done. It was done in the Ministry of Finance, and again, it was fully canvassed in the Finance estimates earlier this week. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There was also a timely decision made. As we said at the time, we had to make the decision rapidly, or we felt we were going to lose the window of opportunity. We would have been put at a competitive and economic disadvantage in British Columbia vis-à-vis Ontario, and we did not want to be put in a disadvantageous position. We wanted to be put in a stronger economic position. We wanted to be put in a competitive position that would encourage investment and, through that investment encouragement, would encourage the creation of new jobs in the province. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Just to focus on the Premier and the Premier's office. Did the Premier direct the Finance Minister and the Finance Ministry to prepare information, as his goal No. 5 says in his service plan, and to direct information and analysis on the new information that would have come in to make the government change their mind on the HST? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: What I have been very clear about and what the government is very clear about is that we want our economy to be strengthened as we go through this time so that when we come out, we'll be a stronger economy as we go forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It is the Finance Ministry and the professionals in the Finance Ministry that carry out the analysis. I expect that to be done, and it doesn't require a direction. The direction is to come forward with initiatives, policies and tax regimes or tax programs that actually will allow us to have a stronger economy, will encourage investment and will encourage job creation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Those are the kinds of directions you give to the minister. The minister then has an obligation and responsibility to look at the opportunities, look at the various options that they may have, analyze those, and come back and make recommendations to cabinet. Cabinet considers those recommendations and makes decisions. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1555]
C. James: Maybe I need to get a bit more specific for the Premier. Again, related to his goal in his office, which is to ensure that there's timely information, to ensure that the committees have key policy program advice on directions that they're going forward, did the Premier instruct the Finance Minister or the Finance Ministry staff to do an analysis around the impact of the HST on, for example, the restaurant industry? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: If I can repeat myself, the Finance Minister and the Finance Ministry and the professionals in the Finance Ministry are required to provide full analysis. I am not about to discuss all of the analysis that was received by cabinet. I can tell you this was canvassed in the Finance Ministry's estimates. Again, I believe that we had timely advice, and we acted on that timely advice and analysis brought forward by the Finance Ministry as canvassed in the Finance Ministry's estimates. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: So the Premier is saying that analysis was done on the impact of the HST on the restaurant industry? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: I do not intend to get into a discussion of the details of analysis that was provided to cabinet by Finance Ministry officials. I think that would be a breach of cabinet confidentiality. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Then in a general question to the Premier, did the Premier's office direct any analysis to be done on the impact of the HST on any of the industries in British Columbia? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: To repeat myself, the Finance Ministry and the Finance Minister responsible for carrying out that analysis.... That analysis of the impacts of these decisions on our broad economy was made, and the cabinet made a decision. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: The Premier says analysis was done. The Premier will not tell us what analysis was done. The Premier won't say whether there was analysis done on the impact of the HST on particular industries or particular areas that will be negatively impacted. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My question to the Premier is: does he feel that the public has a right to see that analysis around one of the most regressive taxes that's going to be introduced in B.C.'s history? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1600]
Hon. G. Campbell: Again, there is substantial information available to the public on the website. The Minister of Finance has asked for input from people about any mitigation measures that they feel should be undertaken. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Let me refer again to the Finance Ministry estimates of this week, where the minister pointed out that "I think this actually goes back to the start of our discussions two hours ago" and that according to most of the leading economists in Canada, this is "the single biggest thing that the province can do to stimulate the economy and create jobs in British Columbia" and that the more we can do to "stimulate the economy, create jobs, make sure people are working," it will provide more disposable income that people can use for "the occasional restaurant meal out." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It is important to note that the tax credit that has been announced will be in place with regard to the HST next July. In fact, the HST will be less regressive than the PST. The HST will be more transparent than the PST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1605]
The HST will provide for added benefits in businesses like construction, manufacturing, transportation, forestry. It provides for $150 million in savings for compliance costs. It provides an additional $30 million in administrative savings for government that can go back to other services. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There is a plethora of information that is available on the website that people can access. It would be a breach of cabinet confidentiality for me to suggest beyond what we've already put out, but I'm sure if the opposition believes that there's something that's been withheld, they can access it through freedom of information. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: I'd again like to remind the member, while the Chair gives considerable latitude, to keep the questions relevant to Vote 10, the Premier's estimates. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Hon. Chair, I appreciate the caution, and that's why I'm talking about the Premier's office, the Premier's staff and work done by the Premier related to one of his key goals, which is the issue of the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What I heard from the Premier is that we can go to the website and find out information. But the Premier left out a big piece of information, which is: there was not specific analysis on the website about specific industries and the impact of the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I would certainly imagine that any government that's taking on a major initiative like the HST — a major tax change in our province that has been acknowledged as a major tax change in our province — would do an analysis of the impact of that tax on individual areas: public service, consumers, individual industries. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Premier has mentioned a list, and he went through a list of individual industries that he said had spoken out, and that's what the government based its information on. But I'd like to remind the Premier that there are a number of industries that he didn't mention that, in fact, have raised concerns. If the Premier would just take a moment, I'll just read a few of those. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Ian Tostenson, the president of the restaurant association, predicts the HST will cost the average consumer between a thousand and $1,800 a year and that the restaurant industry will lose $750 million in annual sales, or almost $50,000 for an average restaurant, because British Columbians will eat out less. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
On October 20 the Council of Tourism Associations of British Columbia, or COTA, also expressed their concerns. They found that the implementation of the tax could cost the tourism industry up to 5,174 direct jobs and over 10,000 indirect jobs and may cause a drop of $545 million in visitors. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
One area that COTA points out particularly hard hit is rural British Columbia and the whole area of the ski industry, which again, we know is going to have an impact. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Another area that the Premier didn't mention in his list is the whole issue of homebuying. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I've mentioned a number of different industries and a number of different areas that will be impacted. So I'd just like to ask the Premier in a general sense, based on his goal, which is to make sure that cabinet has timely information: did the Premier, or did the Premier's staff in his office, put together any kind of analysis? Did he feel it was important to put together any kind of analysis on individual industries or areas in British Columbia that would be impacted by the HST? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1610]
Hon. G. Campbell: Again to repeat myself, the analysis was carried out by Finance Ministry officials. That analysis is clear — that this has an enormous benefit on our overall economy. It is an analysis that is reiterated and endorsed by groups like the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, the Canada West Foundation, the B.C. Road Builders and Heavy Construction Association, the Retail Council of British Columbia, the mining council of British Columbia, the Institute of Chartered Accountants of British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
A fulsome and complete analysis was done on the benefits for our economy. It is one part of our tax system in the province of British Columbia, which is one of the most competitive in the country. We were clear that we wanted to maintain that competitive edge. We do have the lowest personal income taxes in Canada. We have been able to eliminate taxes for 325,000 British Columbians, with the personal exemption. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Already we see the small business taxes by 2012 are going to be down to zero, which will be, obviously, the lowest in Canada. We're reducing our corporate tax rates by 39 percent by 2011. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think that at the end of the day, one of the things that's important to note is that, actually, with the adoption of the HST, we will have a less regressive tax than the current provincial sales tax; we will have a more transparent tax than the current sales tax; we will have $150 million savings in terms of compliance costs to small businesses and businesses across the province; and we will have an environment that actually encourages investment, encourages job creation and will strengthen the overall economy. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Regardless of the sector of the economy that you're in, a strong economy helps all of the economy. That does not mean there are not changes that will have to take place, but I can tell you, hon. Chair, that I think it's clear. I think we've been very explicit with regard to that. The information is available. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I know that a number of times people decide that their analysis will include not looking at any of the embedded tax credits that they will get as a result of adapting the HST. There is ongoing work that's taking place with regard to this, to how we can mitigate any of those challenges. As we do that work, we will move towards the budget, the 2010-11 budget and the adoption of the HST, if this Legislature approves that change in time for July of 2010. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: What I've heard from the Premier is that the analysis that he used and the analysis they used in the 53 days between the time of the HST being talked about and the HST being implemented are basically those people who agreed with the government's direction, the position they wanted to take. In fact, they aren't releasing any information around any analysis that was done on industries that may be negatively impacted or consumers that may be negatively impacted. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd just like to read a quote to the Premier from his own Progress Board. This is a progress board that the Premier appointed. It's the Premier's Progress Board, and the report specifically identifies a key flaw in the HST. I'm quoting the Progress Board report here. It says: "A highly visible shift of the tax burden from businesses to consumers." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My question is to the Premier. Did he pay attention to the Progress Board report when they warned that the HST is, in fact, a highly visible shift of the tax burden from businesses to consumers? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: I'd like to remind members that we are talking about Vote 10 and to ensure that the questions are directed to Vote 10 and not questions which could be better dealt with in other estimates. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1615]
Hon. G. Campbell: Hon. Chair, as you remind us, this was thoroughly canvassed in the estimates for the Ministry of Finance. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I'm not surprised that we continue on and that the Premier isn't interested in exploring the issue of the HST. I understand it's an uncomfortable issue for this government. I can understand why they wouldn't want to have discussions. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I also want to remind the Premier that, in fact, the HST is, as he described, one of the most important issues that he's bringing forward in his government. The Premier, through the Premier's office, has been involved directly in the issue of the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I just want to talk a little bit about the flexibility as the Premier called it, and the Premier referred to that. He talked about the fact that the PST and the HST make a difference when it comes to flexibility for government. I just want to remind the Premier that in a previous budget that came forward, the PST was used by the Premier to be able to talk about his climate change goals. The Premier used the PST to be able to encourage changes in behaviour, to use the PST to remove it from various areas, to assist the Premier when it comes to his climate action agenda and his promises. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We know the HST is going to have an impact, so I'd like to ask the Premier what kind of discussions he and his staff have had around the impact of the HST on the Premier's climate change agenda. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: Again, I would say to the Leader of the Opposition that this was thoroughly covered in the Finance estimates. Having said that, this action does not preclude us from taking activity in other areas of the economy and other tax initiatives. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This is actually an action that will encourage investment in the province of British Columbia. It will encourage increased productivity. It will encourage companies to invest in their equipment and their plant, because we will, in fact, have one of the lowest levels of effective marginal tax rates. It will encourage companies like Alcan, for example, which is looking at whether or not they can move forward with a major investment in a renewed, modernized smelter in Kitimat that will dramatically reduce greenhouse gas as well as other emissions from that plant. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This actually is a tool that encourages many of the initiatives this government has advocated. We will continue to advocate those initiatives, and as we advocate those initiatives with a strong economy, it will encourage investments in alternative energy. It will encourage investments in new bioenergy. All of those things are going to be critical as we develop a low-carbon economy in this province that will not just be a leader for Canada but will be a leader for the continent. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Could the Premier tell me what analysis he or his staff did on the HST and the impact on his climate change agenda and his promises? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1620]
Hon. G. Campbell: I think I answered that question, but I'm actually interested that the Leader of the Opposition is so interested in PST exemptions, which your party voted against. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What I am very clear about is that our party and our government are going to continue to encourage reduction of greenhouse gases. To do that, it's going to require significant additional investment in the existing plant as well as creating the opportunities for new modern plant. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It also is critical, in terms of encouraging private sector investment, that we have a tax regime that is seen to be a positive tax regime that encourages their investment. It will encourage new energy investments. It will encourage bioenergy investments. As I said earlier, it provides substantial productivity gains for our entire economy, including the construction industry, the manufacturing industry, the forest industry, the transportation industry, the mining industry and the small businesses across this province. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
All of those businesses will now be in a position where they can actually invest in their future because we have an open, transparent, less regressive tax regime in place as a result of the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I'm going to move on to talk a little bit about one of the committees that the Premier chairs, but I think it's important.... The Premier used the words "open and accountable," and what we've learned through this section of estimates is anything but open and accountable. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What we've learned is that the Premier, in fact, had discussions before the end of May with the Finance Minister on the HST, that the public wasn't told about that, that in 53 days — because the announcement on the HST wasn't made until July 23 — the public wasn't told that the HST was on the table. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Premier says that analysis may or may not have been done, and he's not willing to share it with the public. One of the biggest tax changes in this province's history, and the Premier didn't have analysis done on specific industries, on specific areas — everything from school boards to environmental areas to home-building to restaurants. Huge impacts, and yet the Premier won't share that analysis or didn't ask for that specific analysis to be done — neither he nor his staff. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So I think it's very concerning. I think the public will certainly feel, after this discussion, that they're even more concerned about the lack of transparency, the lack of openness, the lack of thought that went into bringing forward the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Just to explore one of the roles that the Premier does have, which is the chair of a cabinet committee that has been described as functioning as an inner cabinet. That's the agenda and priorities committee. Could the Premier please describe the functions of that committee for us? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1625]
Hon. G. Campbell: First, let me just say, with regard to the comments from the Leader of the Opposition, that the HST is the single most important thing we can do to encourage the strengthening of our economy in this province. It is more transparent than the current tax regime. It is less regressive than the current tax regime. It will encourage investment. It will encourage productivity. It will encourage competitiveness. It will actually lead to a stronger, cleaner economy for British Columbians. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think I've said and reiterated on a number of occasions that a full analysis was done by the professionals in our Finance Ministry. Those people have an exceptional record. British Columbia has a triple-A credit rating, recognizing the strength of our Finance Ministry officials and the broad framework of analysis that we've done. In terms of the agenda and priorities committee of cabinet, I think we've been pretty clear about what our priorities are as a government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We have said that we want to continue to encourage improvements in education. We want to make sure that we encourage expanding educational opportunities. We've said that we believe that we have to continue to pursue a goal of making British Columbia a healthier place for all of us to live. We've identified the importance of the environment and dealing with the challenge of the generation, which happens to be climate change. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We've said that we want to make sure we have sustainable environmental management. We want to care for people who are in the lower end, less able to care for themselves. We want to build an economy that actually supports those important public sector objectives that we have. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The agenda and priorities committee examines how we can encourage a healthy economy and looks at the broad range of issues we may have as government and says: "How do we focus our time, focus our attention and focus our resources to make sure that we accomplish the goals we've set for ourselves as a cabinet and as a government?" [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Could the Premier just tell us how often the agenda and priorities cabinet committee meets and, again, talk about the functions of that committee? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1630]
Hon. G. Campbell: The agenda and priorities committee meets regularly and as required. It discusses the priorities of government, and it is subject to cabinet confidentiality. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Could the Premier tell me: how does the Premier's agenda and priorities committee interact with Treasury Board? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: The agenda and priorities committee is a committee of cabinet and subject to cabinet confidentiality. The Treasury Board is a committee of cabinet and subject to confidentiality. I don't have, off the top of my head, the memberships of the two committees, but they have been made public. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I understand the confidentiality issues, as the Premier has outlined, but I'm just asking about the interaction of the committees. How do the committees interact with each other? Do they have regular, scheduled meetings and agendas together? How is the Premier's staff involved in setting the agendas of those committees, including the agenda and priorities committee? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: The Treasury Board and the agenda and priorities committee do not meet in concert. They report through to cabinet. Their agendas are coordinated by the cabinet operations and the cabinet secretary. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Are any of the Premier's staff on that committee? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: The cabinet members are on the committee, and they're identified in the public information. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Does the Premier's chief of staff attend the agenda and priorities committee with the Premier? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: Yes, my chief of staff often attends a cabinet committee meeting as a staff member. Appropriate staff are always asked and invited to be part of the cabinet deliberations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1635]
C. James: Just to come back to the interaction between Treasury Board and the agenda and priorities committee. The Finance Minister isn't part of the agenda and priorities committee, so I'm presuming that economic information comes to the agenda and priorities committee. I would assume that as part of their role of setting agenda and priorities, they receive fiscal information. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I wonder if the Premier could tell us, then, who from Treasury Board reports to the agenda and priorities committee that the Premier chairs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: Ministers regularly attend cabinet committees if they have an item on the agenda of that cabinet committee. So the Treasury Board, to give you an idea, just to give you the names, includes the chair, who is the Minister of Finance; the vice-chair, who is the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure; the member for Surrey-Panorama; the member for Nanaimo-Parksville, I think it's called; the Minister of Healthy Living and Sport; the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources; and the Minister of Agriculture and Lands. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Treasury Board reports out to cabinet. Cabinet ministers and their officials often attend Treasury Board. That's in fact how items are dealt with on the agenda. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Similarly, with the agenda and priorities committee, the members include myself as the chair, the Minister of Aboriginal Reconciliation, the Minister of Housing and Social Development, the Attorney General, the Minister of Health Services, the Minister of Education and the member for West Vancouver–Sea to Sky. That's the committee makeup. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Ministers and their officials could come, if there was an appropriate item on an agenda, to attend and make recommendations, to ask for advice from either of those committees. Those committees then report out to cabinet. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Then just to talk in general terms — I recognize the confidentiality issues the Premier has raised: could the Premier tell me how these two bodies, Treasury Board and the agenda and priorities committee, which I'm presuming sets agendas and priorities for government, interact in preparation for the budget? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1640]
Hon. G. Campbell: Again, so that I can be clear, there are these two particular cabinet committees. The coordinating, the decision-making body of government is cabinet. Cabinet coordinates those things. The budget is prepared by the Treasury Board. It is submitted to cabinet. Cabinet makes the decisions with regard to the budget at the end of the day, so I think it's important for us to recognize that the overall coordinating, decision-making body of all of government is the cabinet. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I recognize that. I think it's just important for the public to know that the Premier chairs the agenda and priorities cabinet committee and what role it plays in relationship to the budget, in relationship to revenue, in relationship to funding for a program. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Just to ask the Premier specifically, then: could the Premier describe the process under his government where funding for a program gets approved and specifically what role the agenda and priorities committee, chaired by the Premier, plays in that? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: The development of the budget is a responsibility of the Treasury Board. The Treasury Board reports to cabinet. Cabinet makes the final decision. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Again, just so I'm clear. The Premier is saying that the agenda and priorities cabinet committee that he chairs plays no role in determining program spending? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: I do think this is important. The budget is established by Treasury Board. Agenda and priorities sets the priorities for government. Those issues can come forward that…. Should we put time, effort and energy into those issues, or should they be other issues? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As I've mentioned earlier, there are a number of major initiatives we've undertaken as government, including building a new relationship with first nations, dealing with the challenges of climate change, strengthening our economy. There's a whole plethora of things that you have to deal with, and the cabinet committee tries to deal with those things and organize them. But the decisions with regard to the budget are made by the cabinet, with the advice of the Treasury Board. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: We'll all remember…. I want to talk a little bit about the Premier's economic statement — and it will relate to the agenda and priorities committee — which he made in October 2008. It was with regard to discretionary spending cuts. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1645]
I'll just quote the Premier from that statement: [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
"We will act immediately to rein in avoidable government spending. It was a lot of work to make B.C. a deficit-free zone, and we aim to keep it that way. We'll continue to live within our means and within the taxpayers' ability to pay. We will not start digging ourselves back into a hole….
"We will re-evaluate our spending to protect our priorities and will focus on scaling back unbudgeted increases in spending. Government is no different than families. We can afford to do what we must, even in these times, but we won't be able to afford everything we'd like right now."
That was the Premier's economic statement back in October. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
He vowed that he was going to start reining in government spending. Could the Premier please tell us when that plan was actually implemented? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: The initiative to rein in avoidable spending commenced right away, following the October statement, and in fact, it is ongoing. We understood that we had to take a number of initiatives that would result in difficult decisions. I identified a number of those yesterday, but I'm glad to do it again today if the leader would like me to highlight those. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: The directive was implemented immediately, the Premier says. Press reports state that on the reserve of unfunded money after the discretionary freeze was put in place, there were two paths that ministers could take or bureaucrats could take to be able to deal with unfreezing that money after the Premier's directive came out. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
According to the press, it said that bureaucrats could appeal to the deputy ministers' committee for those funds and that ministers could appeal to the Premier's agenda and priorities committee. Given that that's the Premier's committee and that he chairs that committee, could the Premier please describe for us how the discretionary spending review and the approval process worked during this time period? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: Again, I'd like to remind the member that we are talking about Vote 10, which is the 2009-10 estimates. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1650]
Hon. G. Campbell: I can't speak to the media reports, but I can reiterate that all financial framework decisions are made by the Ministry of Finance. The initiatives undertaken around the restrictive spending review started immediately following the October statement. They continued towards February. In fact, they were one of the reasons that we were able to bring in a surplus that was in excess of what was budgeted for the 2008 year, in spite of the economic challenges. They were identified as an ongoing program in the February budget, and indeed, they're ongoing as a result of the September budget as well. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In terms of setting a fiscal framework, that is a responsibility…. It's a decision of cabinet, but the recommendations are made by Treasury Board. Once that framework has been set, it may well be that a minister comes and discusses the various choices they have to make within the ministry within that fiscal framework to meet the government's priorities. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: As we know, there have been a number of decisions that had to be made from the time of the election until now — a number of decisions around spending, a number of decisions around priorities. The Premier has said that himself — that when it comes to the budget, a number of difficult decisions had to be made. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As the Premier has described, his agenda and priorities committee, the committee that he chairs…. Ministers come to that committee and have discussions around priorities and whether those priorities are going forward. Could the Premier tell me: in some of the discussions that have occurred from the election until now…? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'll give a specific example to the Premier. For example, the reductions that have been made to Special Olympics and B.C. School Sports — would that discussion have come to the agenda and priorities committee that the Premier chairs to have a discussion about priorities when it came to spending? Recognizing that the spending decision was made, as the Premier said, by cabinet after discussion with Treasury Board, would those discussions around priorities and setting priorities have come to the Premier's agenda and priorities committee? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: I think I've been as explicit as I can with regard to how the process worked. I actually signed an oath of cabinet confidentiality. It would be inappropriate and would be a breach of that should I discuss how cabinet decisions are made or what comes at what time. I think I've been open with regard to how we deal with these issues at cabinet. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I understand the cabinet confidentiality, and I appreciate the Premier making sure that he's not looking at delving into that area. I'm not asking the Premier to delve into that area. I'm just trying to determine for the public what kind of process is used at an agenda and priorities committee that the Premier chairs in decisions that have to be made by government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1655]
So not a specific decision, but if a decision is being made around cuts to a program or increases to a program, would that issue come forward to the Premier's committee, the agenda and priorities committee, to make a determination about whether that was a priority for government to then go forward to Treasury Board for funding approval? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: I've tried to be clear about how this works within the confines and the constraints of the oath that I have taken, and I think I've answered that question. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Then I'll move on and continue on with the Premier's discretionary spending edict that he put out. I'd like to remind the Premier of another statement that he made, and I'll just read the quote again. This is a quote from the Premier when he was Leader of the Opposition: [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
"I believe that the Premier and the office of the Premier are the fundamental arbiters of accountability. They are the fundamental receivers. They are the fundamental referees of accountability within…government. You know, the challenge that we have and that the public has, it seems to me, is that the Premier must always lead by example. His office must always lead by example."
That was from July 8, 1999. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to ask the Premier whether he felt his office and himself as Premier had a responsibility to lead as head of government by example when it came to the exercise of cutting discretionary spending. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[L. Reid in the chair.]
Hon. G. Campbell: I do think it's important for the Premier's office to set an example and meet the same standards that we are setting for other ministries. I think this is a very important initiative if we are going to protect health care, education and other critical services. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I identified yesterday a number of areas where we thought that there could be a savings that would be applied to those critical and vital public services. Across government that will continue to happen. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There are more areas of discretionary spending in some ministries than the others, but certainly, in the Premier's office we look to meet the same standards that have been set in other ministries. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: So the Premier says that yes, he does feel it's important to set the example, that as head of government he feels it's important to set the example when it comes to cutting discretionary spending. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Given that the Premier has said that and given that the Premier has said that everyone across government needs to tighten their belts, could the Premier please tell us why he named, then, one of the largest cabinets in B.C.'s history, a cabinet that also includes three ministers for sport at a time when the Premier has said he needed to set the example to tighten belts. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1700]
Hon. G. Campbell: I think it actually is important that we have a cabinet that is able to manage the number of items on the agenda that are before us as a government. There is one Minister of Healthy Living and Sport in our government, and there will continue to be one Minister of Healthy Living and Sport. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: We've spent a lot of time in these estimates going through the Premier talking about the financial situation in the province, the kind of economic situation we're in. So I do have to wonder how the Premier justifies paying for three separate offices for those ministers of sport, three separate ministers' salaries, extra staff, added cost — this cabinet put together by the Premier. This was something he did directly in putting this cabinet together. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My question is to the Premier. Given his edict to the rest of the cabinet, given his edict to the rest of government, given his edict to the public about cutbacks that were coming, why didn't the Premier decide to lead by example? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1705]
Hon. G. Campbell: First, in terms of the Premier's office, we actually have reduced our budget significantly this year. It's a 17.3 percent reduction, or a $2.405 million reduction in spending from the 2008-09 budget. We expect that to continue. The budget for 2010-11 is $11.087 million, compared to $11.5 million this year. The budget for 2011-12 will be $10.6 million, down from the $11.08 million in 2010-11. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Both the political staff and the public service staff have been reduced in our budget. Our travel is down. Our professional services are down. Our office and business expenses are down. Our salary benefits due to vacancies are also down. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In terms of the ministers that the Leader of the Opposition has been referring to, the Minister of Healthy Living and Sport has an obligation to deal with public health. That ministry has been deeply involved in the issue of dealing with H1N1 and public health generally. We have set a goal for ourselves to actually break away from simply thinking of health as being taking care of people who get sick but actually trying to encourage people to stay well. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think there is evidence in British Columbia that we have done well with that, and it's important for us to focus on that as part of an initiative that we face as we try and sustain our health care system. So today in British Columbia we have the highest life expectancy of any community in Canada. In fact, if we were an independent country in British Columbia, we'd have the longest life expectancy for males in the world, and we would have amongst the longest life expectancy in the world for women. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1710]
In terms of physical activity, British Columbia is first in Canada. We have to continue to encourage that. We know there is an epidemic in place where there is a reduction in physical activity in our young people. We think it's critically important that we pursue that — again, not just in terms of the well-being of our children but in terms of the well-being of our community and the sustainability of our health care system in the long term. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We actually have the lowest number of people in British Columbia who are overweight. We have the lowest level of tobacco use in the country. All of those are coordinated and focused on by the Ministry of Healthy Living and Sport and by our public health initiatives. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We want to continue to promote health. We want to continue with the program of health promotion, and that's why the Ministry of Healthy Living and Sport exists. There is a Minister of State for the Olympics and ACTNow. That minister of state has a number of objectives. Most importantly, it's critically important that we take full advantage of the Olympic opportunity that is before us. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It is probably the single largest economic development opportunity that we will have in this province as we go through 2010. It creates literally hundreds of thousands of jobs. It creates and already has created thousands of small businesses in the province. We want to continue to focus on that. We want to continue encouraging investment. We want to continue encouraging the development of tourism opportunities as we come out of the Olympics. The Olympics is really a launching pad for a number of initiatives we can take as government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Finally, the Minister of Education has a responsibility not just for the K-to-12 education system, but she has a responsibility to ensure that our young people have a full complement of services available to them, and she carries that out. So I think all three of those ministries are important. I think the undertakings that they've had are important. I think they reflect some important initiatives that the government has undertaken. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I do think it is important to note that even with that size of cabinet there is a significantly smaller political staff involved with that cabinet than was the case with the previous government. That again reflects the fact that we are trying to be prudent with how we manage our dollars. We're trying to be focused and effective in how we invest our dollars for long-term benefits for British Columbians. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I have to say that the public would expect that the Premier could do all of those duties without naming one of the largest cabinets in B.C.'s history, and that it's a bit rich, coming from the Premier, to say that they're looking at making sure they're cutting back and they have less political staff when they have the largest cabinet in B.C.'s history. That's not something that the Premier can dress up in any way. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to ask the Premier whether he did an estimate in his office. It was his office and the Premier himself that put together cabinet. Could the Premier tell me whether he took a look or asked his deputy or his staff to take a look at the cost of an expanded cabinet? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1715]
Hon. G. Campbell: I am both aware of the costs and the benefits of a cabinet, and as I've mentioned, not just in the Premier's office but in every ministerial office there has been a significant amount of belt-tightening. In the government itself we are undertaking initiatives that will result in almost $1.9 billion of discretionary spending. I think that's critically important, and it does require political leadership to do that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I understand some of the challenges that we're facing with regard to this, but I can tell you that the undertakings that have been made by ministers that have been canvassed in all the other estimates, I think, are clear. We are dealing with our discretionary costs in government. We are dealing with providing additional resources for health care. We are providing additional resources for education. We are providing additional resources for forest fire fighting. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
All of those things are a response to the fact that there was a significant effort undertaken to be as cost-effective as possible as we went through these challenging times — including, as I mentioned, that the political staffs at this point are significantly lower than the previous government's political staff. I think that the size of the cabinet is appropriate from my perspective, and I think that British Columbians are getting real value from cabinet for the work that they're doing. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I'd just like to take a look at a comment that the Premier made when he was Leader of the Opposition, when he tore a strip off a former Premier for expanding cabinet to 19. At the time the Premier, as opposition leader, said he could run government with only 12 ministers. He said, in fact, that taxpayers were being soaked by a cabinet of 19 — being soaked — and he suggested that substantial dollars spent on cabinet should instead be going to textbooks or patient care. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So my question is: when the Premier was forming the cabinet himself just after June, after the election, in May and June, was he unconcerned about the substantial dollars that were being put together for a cabinet of 25 members plus six parliamentary secretaries? Was he no longer concerned about the taxpayers and ensuring those dollars went to — oh, I don't know — B.C. school sports or parent advisory councils? Didn't he think that that mattered? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1720]
Hon. G. Campbell: I actually think that the Leader of the Opposition…. I'm glad she's taken the time to find some of my previous comments. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think in terms of when that decision was made, it was clear that not just were there 19 ministers; there were 13 parliamentary secretaries. One of the things I should say to you is that in fact I think you do need to have political leadership to deal with these. That's one of the things I've learned. I've actually learned things in the last number of years. I do think it's important to do that, and I think it's the political leadership that allows us to do exactly what I was talking about in that exceptionally articulate quote. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We are actually bringing forward substantial increases in health care investments. Just to give you an idea: a 70 percent increase since that time in health resources. We have had a substantial increase in the number of jobs that actually support our public services. We've had a substantial increase in public education expenditures. That continues to be the thrust of what we are trying to accomplish, and it continues to be, in fact, the record of this government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Substantial increases in health care budgets this year. Substantial increases in patient care. Substantial increases in education. All of those things are because we have a strong economy, because we've had strong political leadership from the cabinet. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I can tell you today, hon. Chair, I would not be thinking of having a 12-person cabinet. I don't think that it's possible to run an enterprise as large, as complex and as multilayered as the province of British Columbia's government with only 12 ministers. In spite of how capable they are, without the reach of all of the ministers working on that, it would be very difficult to accomplish that goal. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I appreciate the Premier saying that he learned something, but I have to say that I think the public would have preferred that the Premier had learned how important education and health care and arts and culture and funding for Special Olympics was rather than learning that a larger cabinet was something that resources should go into. I think the public would have preferred the other. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I just want to take another look at an area that the Premier could have led by example and take a look at the expenses that the Premier's office has incurred. As we know, each year ministries report their purchasing or credit card charges through public accounts. These are the charges for restaurant meals, travel, office, pizza, etc. — the kinds of things you would think of as discretionary spending. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Premier's office is in fact the only ministry that doesn't report out separately. The Premier's office charges for credit cards are rolled into the Finance list of charges. So just a question around transparency and openness and accounting from the Premier's office. Could the Premier tell me why purchasing card payments for the Premier's office aren't separated out? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1725]
Hon. G. Campbell: I just want to deal with some of the assertions that were made by the Leader of the Opposition, and then I will deal with the final question that she raised. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
First of all, in terms of health care I think it's important to note that we are seeing significant expansion of services literally every year as demand goes up. We are seeing significant expansion of investments in the Health Ministry, as was covered by the Health Ministry estimates. So there are 118 percent more knee replacements that are taking place. There are 58 percent more hip replacements. There are 42 percent more cataract surgeries and 55 percent more angioplasties. We have seen a dramatic increase in MRI scans of 163 percent since 2002, and CTs are up 86 percent. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
You know, I think that the issue for us is that we are investing significant dollars. We are providing substantial increases in benefits. We are continuing to do that this year, and we will continue to monitor that and work to strengthen the economy so that we can do that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In education this year alone we are spending $750 million on students with special needs. All of those things are important. We've invested over a billion dollars in literacy programs. We continue to invest in literacy and find ways that we can be more effective. One of the reasons we can do that is because we are thoughtful about how we actually get the results that we need for the lowest possible price. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So you take two small ministries like the Ministry of Finance and the Premier's office, and you bring them together with a coordinated service. We report into that service because it's a more economic way of doing it. Obviously, you could split them apart. It would cost taxpayers more for that service. It in no way restricts the availability of information. If people are interested in getting additional information, they can get it. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: Just to ask the Premier, since this is an issue around discretionary spending and making sure that the Premier was looking at his own office and reining in spending: does the Premier then get a separate report printed out for his office to ensure that he's reining in spending, and will he provide that as a report? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1730]
Hon. G. Campbell: Yes, we get monthly reports with regard to how we're doing, and if the leader is concerned about our trends and how we've been doing, we have always had a trend in the Premier's office of underspending. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
For example, in 2008-09 the budget was $13.94 million. The actual spending for 2008-09 was $13.524 million. For the 2009-10 year budget, spending has been reduced to $11.53 million, and as I mentioned earlier, it will be reduced further to $11.087 million in 2010-11 and $10.614 million in 2011-12. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We look as other ministries do. We are directed by the Ministry of Finance to find savings that are appropriate in keeping with the government's initiatives. The intergovernmental relations secretariat dropped from $3.4 million — almost $3.5 million — to $2.766 million. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The deputy ministers policy secretariat dropped from $2.69 million to $2.04 million, executive and support services dropped from $7.7 million to $6.725 million, and we will continue to look for areas where we can find reductions. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We anticipate that we will find those with a combination of directed Treasury Board STOB reductions, attrition of vacant positions, B.C. Public Service Agency budget centralization reductions and budget transfers that may have to go out to other public agencies. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Just to give you an idea, we have reduced operating costs. They're down 7 percent. Travel is down 22 percent. Professional services are down 66 percent. Office and business expenses are down 25 percent. Salary and benefits savings due to vacancies are down 15 percent. Grants and transfers are down 56 percent. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Those are all initiatives that we've undertaken and were guided by the directives of the Ministry of Finance that was developed and provided to the Premier's Office. We will continue with those. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
For example, we're looking at cell and BlackBerry costs. We have achieved further savings with regard to reviewing IT costs. We will continue to do that. In the first six months of the Premier's office budget, we have seen a savings of over 30 percent in both our office expenses and our information systems. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I do think it's important to note that that information is all available in Public Accounts. It's all fully disclosed when we have budget documentation and when the budget is released. Should the opposition request further information, they can do so through the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1735]
C. James: The Premier said the reason that there's one report, that they don't put out the purchasing card report, purchasing card charges, separately for the Premier's office is that it makes sense to collapse the two reports into one because they're small. In fact, some of the other ministries have smaller purchasing card charge accounts than the Premier's office. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Premier obviously, as he has said, gets a monthly charge. So I guess my question, again, to the Premier is: why isn't the Premier's office putting out their own report when in fact it's larger than some of the other ministries? Where's the logic in the Premier rolling his purchasing card charge account into the Finance Ministry's? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: There are a number of service pods in government — for example, the Premier's office and the Finance Ministry; the Ministry of Tourism, Culture and the Arts and the Ministry of Community Development; the Attorney General's ministry with the Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General's ministry. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There is a credit card arrangement which is made with the credit card companies. In fact, the reason that we went in this direction was because we wanted to be as transparent as we could. It may be that there are more savings we can find in terms of this kind of administration across government, and we'll be looking at those in the year ahead. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I would suggest to the Premier: if the Premier wants to be transparent, he should be putting out a separate report for his office. I think that's very clear. It's very clear that it isn't transparent to roll it in with the Finance Minister's office and not have a separate report. For it to be one of the only offices that do that just leads people to believe that the Premier doesn't want to be open and accountable. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Just to put on the record, in 2007-2008 the Finance–Premier's office bill — because remember, they're on one bill — was $3.7 million and change. In 2008-2009 it was in fact $4.8 million — over a million dollars or 28 percent higher. I think it's important to get that on the record. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I now want to move to a couple of questions related to some of the Premier's great goals. One of those, in particular, that I'll start off with is the great goal No. 3: "Build the best system of support in Canada for people with disabilities, those with special needs, children at risk and seniors." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As we all know, this week marked the sixth year in a row that B.C. has the highest child poverty rate in Canada. Six years. I don't think there's anyone…. I certainly would expect the Premier, who has set a goal to deal with children at risk, would not find that an acceptable statistic. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1740]
We've had six provinces that have now committed to child poverty reduction strategies: Quebec, Ontario, Newfoundland, Manitoba, Nova Scotia and most recently New Brunswick. We all know that it's the right thing to do to deal with child poverty. It's a moral imperative because, if we as a society don't provide for those children, then we all lose out as a society. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But it's not simply a moral imperative. It's also an economic imperative. Dealing with child poverty now means we won't have to deal with the costs later on as a society. Whether it's health, education, employment or justice, all of those issues will cost us if we don't address this issue now. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
On May 26 of this year the Representative for Children and Youth, Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond, wrote to the Premier and myself asking for a joint meeting to discuss this significant opportunity. I use a quote from the letter: "…significant opportunity for both government and the opposition to work collaboratively on a plan to address issues relating to vulnerable children and families in British Columbia." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I would like to ask the Premier today whether he would commit to sitting down with Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond and myself and come up with a plan to address this shameful statistic in British Columbia and get on with addressing the issue of child poverty. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: There are a number of issues that the Leader of the Opposition has raised. First of all, of course everyone in this Legislature is concerned about child poverty, and my goal is to have it reduced to zero. In fact, I think that one of the things we have to recognize is when we are making progress in that regard. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Child poverty has been reduced every year since 2003. At times, for example, we've watched as it dropped by 32 percent from 2003 — from 19 percent in 2003 to 13 percent in 2007. It is important to recognize — and I think most people have concerns about this — that the so-called LICO standard is just part of the measurement. Even Statistics Canada has said it is not something that should be taken on its own. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What we've done is tried to assure that we provide low-income people, particularly, with opportunities to have more disposable income. We have increased the shelter rates. We have assured, for example, that employment insurance and income assistance will receive at least a further $50 increase, combined with shelter — a 20 percent increase — making them the second-highest payments in Canada. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1745]
We have worked to provide for more affordable housing not just with major investments in affordable housing but also with the rent supplement program, which helps literally thousands of British Columbia families deal with the challenges of their rents. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We're spending substantial resources on providing subsidies for people who make $38,000 a year. That's a significant increase from the $21,000 a year that was previously there. Because of the tax initiatives that we've undertaken, there are 325,000 British Columbians who pay no personal income tax. That has resulted in significant improvements in the standards of living that people on low income have. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That in no way undermines the fact that we still have work to do. We've made significant progress. We want to continue to do that. We have the lowest level of child poverty that we've had in this province since 1991. Those are important steps. There is more to be done, and more will be done as we move ahead. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
When the issue arises with regard to a meeting with the Representative for Children and Youth…. I've had a number of meetings with the Representative for Children and Youth. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I will remind the Leader of the Opposition that not just Mr. Hughes but this Legislature felt it was important that we establish an all-party legislative committee that the representative would report to. I think the way to maintain this as a non-partisan initiative that will ensure we continue the progress that's been made over the last number of years is to have the representative make presentations, as she does, to the legislative committee for them to report out to the Legislature. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I'm guessing that the answer to the representative and to children living in poverty is no. No, the Premier won't meet with the representative and myself to actually put together a child poverty report. I think that's on the record and is a record of this government's failure to address those children living in poverty. This is an opportunity to show leadership from both political parties on a critical issue. What could be more critical than dealing with that? But it's very clear that the Premier has said no. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to speak about another issue that is a top priority for the Premier. That's the issue of new relationships with first nations. The Premier mentioned this in his opening remarks. I want to speak about a particular issue related to first nations. This is the crisis line that's been developed on Vancouver Island by the Nuu-chah-nulth, who developed this crisis line to deal with the issues of high suicide rates in the community. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
These were crisis lines developed by first nations for first nations. They have a decade of experience, and they're valued by not only the aboriginal community but, in fact, the broad community. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The decision to eliminate these crisis lines was made unilaterally. The Premier has talked about a new relationship with first nations and how critical it is to make sure that they are involved and that they have an opportunity to control their own future. Yet the Minister of Health, appointed by the Premier, is refusing to meet with the first nations to be able to talk about this decision made unilaterally. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I ask the Premier on this issue today: in the spirit of the new relationship, in the spirit of the commitment that the Premier has made to address the issue of reconciliation and new relationship with first nations, will he direct his Health Minister to sit down and have discussions with the first nations on Vancouver Island about this critical service that they developed, that they are committed to and that is serving their communities? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: I'll take this opportunity to remind the member that under Standing Order 61, debate will not be allowed to canvass details associated with other ministries. The member has heard that caution previously. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1750]
Hon. G. Campbell: The details of this particular issue I'm not aware of, but I know that these were discussed. There was the opportunity to discuss them fully in the Minister of Health's estimates. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What I am aware of is that we ask our health authorities to make those important decisions on the ground level. There was a decision made by VIHA, the Vancouver Island Health Authority, that there would be a one-line service that would provide for multiple communities. That in no way undermines the fact that this is the first province in the country that has signed a tripartite first nations health plan committing to improving aboriginal health outcomes and to including the creation of an aboriginal health adviser, which we have done. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The tripartite plan leads the way in Canada. Most recently the relationships that exist have enabled us to coordinate an effective response to the H1N1 issue and supporting other B.C. first nations communities. We continue to work on building this new relationship. We are anticipating some exciting new announcements in the weeks and the months ahead. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think we have shown quite clearly to the first nations — both through the direct consultations that have been held with the leadership summit, with the health council of the first nations, by the appointment of the first-ever British Columbia aboriginal health officer, by the coordination and inclusion of first nations in dealing with the challenges like the H1N1 pandemic — that we're indeed building a new relationship with first nations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As we do that, it is critically important that all of us recognize that there are particular health decisions or health care decisions that will be made on the ground. The service will be available. VIHA will continue to work with first nations and continue to provide those essential services. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I hear the answer from the Premier is no. No, he will not get involved in this issue. No, he will not provide an opportunity for first nations to have the basic consultation — the right to have the basic consultation — that they deserve. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
You know, first nations are looking for more than words. They're looking for action, and they're looking for people to live up to those words and show it through their action. I have to say that this shows that the Premier isn't living up to his word, by not getting involved in those discussions. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd now like to ask a question that's related, again, to one of the Premier's goals and one of the key areas of government, which is the whole area of climate change. As we know, the world community is coming together in Copenhagen in December to consider and, hopefully, ratify the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's recommended greenhouse gas emission reduction targets. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The reports and the discussion leading up to this have scientists demanding that all countries commit to a binding agreement in Copenhagen on climate change. It's an incredibly exciting opportunity that we have ahead of us, and I think that was seen yesterday when President Obama announced that he is actually going to Copenhagen, as well, to show his commitment to climate change, to make sure that people recognize how important it is. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Regrettably in all of this, Canada has really been seen to be blocking progress around climate change. The federal government isn't buying in, isn't signing on, and I think that's very disturbing to all of us who know how important it is that Canada show leadership in all of this. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Now, a number of provinces are attending the UN international climate summit as part of the Canadian delegation, and we've seen the Premier of Quebec speak out to urge the government of Canada to start playing a constructive role, a cooperative role in reaching an international agreement on climate change. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We know that the Premier, as he's said before, has a strong relationship with the Prime Minister, that they have a good working relationship. I've heard that from the Premier before. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1755]
I think there is a unique opportunity here that I'd like to ask the Premier about. It's to join, as we've called for, and urge the Prime Minister to commit to a binding agreement in Copenhagen. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My question is to the Premier: will he use this moment? Will he use this opportunity as we build towards December to talk to the Prime Minister and urge him to make sure that he gets it involved and starts, as I said, a constructive, cooperative opportunity to be able to show leadership in Canada in an area that is so critical to all of us? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: First, I want to be clear with the Leader of the Opposition that we do have a tripartite aboriginal health program that is in place. It's an agreement that is in place. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It is led by an aboriginal health officer for the first time ever in the history of the province. We will continue to build a positive and a constructive relationship with aboriginal communities in health — just as we have in education, where we have the first-in-the-country education agreement that was signed in the province of British Columbia to include aboriginal people; just as we have as we negotiated the central coast and north coast land use plans with aboriginal communities, industrial communities, environmentalists and local communities; just as we have as we have negotiated and will continue to negotiate on treaties with six first nations, the first treaties we've had under the Treaty Commission; just as we have as we work with the Klahoose First Nation to build an economy that will sustain their community, provide them with jobs and provide them with the supports that they need. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We are, frankly, doing tens and dozens of economic and strategic agreements with first nations communities. We will continue to work with them and to build a new relationship. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I am very pleased to see the Leader of the Opposition suddenly embracing the idea of climate change. I can tell you that I will be going to the conference in Copenhagen. I will be advocating for the western climate initiative. I will be advocating for the cap-and-trade system, something that the opposition voted against. I will be pointing out the value of the carbon tax that has been brought forward in British Columbia to build a more competitive, productive, lower-carbon economy, which the opposition was against. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I have encouraged the federal government to join the western climate initiative. It includes not just the province of British Columbia, which is the first Canadian signatory, but it also includes the province of Manitoba, the province of Ontario and the province of Quebec — representing almost 70 percent, I believe, of the gross domestic product that we have in this country. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
If we want to have a continent-wide cap-and-trade system, I believe and we have believed since the outset — in spite of the opposition's opposition to the cap-and-trade system — that by being involved and helping to lead the development of that cap-and-trade system, we would be in a position where Canada could benefit, where the climate could benefit, where our economy could benefit, where the United States could benefit. Our goal in developing the cap-and-trade system is to make sure it's not just adopted by the entire country but adopted by the United States. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
By partnering with the states of California, Washington, Oregon, Arizona, Montana and New Mexico, we have an opportunity to drive a truly continent-wide agenda with regard to cap-and-trade. Our goal through our partnership in the International Carbon Action Partnership is to assure that that system itself can be adapted to the European system. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I don't think anyone has any illusions about this government's commitment and our advocacy with the federal government. We have had meetings with both the Minister of the Environment…. I have consistently laid out the benefits of the approaches that we've taken to the Prime Minister, but I do not presume to tell Canada how they're supposed to negotiate at the international front. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
One of the reasons that I am going to Copenhagen is that I am hopeful that we can arrive at an agreement. I think it's very important. The federal government has asked me to attend as a participant. It is at their invitation that I am going. I think it's very important, though, to recognize…. It is important that President Obama is going. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
However, having said that, President Obama will make statements. Hopefully, he can bring the Congress to the table as well, as we do that, and that's why it's so important that Governor Schwarzenegger will be there. The governor of Washington will be there. There is a concerted effort by all of us to be constructive voices as we deal with the climate change challenge. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1800]
I think one of the real challenges we have is that when people decide that they're going to follow a path of political expedience to deal with this issue, we lose the opportunities. I would say that for those who are opposing President Obama in the United States just as I say that for those who are opposing us in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think this is a critically important issue. I will be there. I will add my voice. I would love the Prime Minister to come, but I can tell you this. I intend to work in concert with Minister Prentice as he requests. I will be there representing subnational governments and discussing in Copenhagen the benefits of us adapting a rigorous climate reduction strategy which calls on all of us to meet our moral and long-term obligations, not just to this generation of British Columbians, but to the next generation and the generation that follows. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I just remind the Premier that if Canada doesn't get on board, and if the Prime Minister doesn't get on board, then all of the initiatives in the world that we put together through the western climate initiative and through British Columbia will not be as strong. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think it is critical that the Premier be not only a cooperative voice with the Prime Minister but, in fact, a strong voice, raising the concerns because, as I said, otherwise we lose the opportunity here in British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Just a final question and then I'll move to wrap up and hand over to my colleague, who will finish up in the rest of the Premier's estimates. I just want to talk for a minute about a task force that the Premier announced at UBCM. That's the task force to write a new local government election act. The Premier said that this will be stand-alone legislation that will "modernize your election rules and create a single provincewide electoral process for local government elections." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
This task force is being chaired by the new president of UBCM, the Minister of Community and Rural Development and two representatives of UBCM as well. This task force has set a date to complete its work by May 30, 2010. We're now approaching the end of November, and there has been no confirmation on the terms of reference of the task force. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Since the Premier announced this — it was the Premier announcing this task force — I would just like to ask the Premier: could he provide an update on the status of the task force, and does he have any concerns, with only five months left, how they're going to be able to carry out the tasks that they've been given? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: First, I want to go back to the issue of climate change again, if I may, for a second. I think the initiatives that we have undertaken with what have become known with the catchy title of subnational governments…. We are actually taking a leadership role. I think that Governor Schwarzenegger in California is seen as a true advocate for climate action, not just in the United States but around the world. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I have had the opportunity to meet with people from not just Portugal and Australia and Europe but also from Africa who have been engaged with Governor Schwarzenegger in looking at how we can deal with this. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think the critical component of this is if you think of the western climate initiative already engaging 80 percent of the Canadian population, 73 percent of the Canadian economy and 20 percent of the U.S. economy, and you look at the fact that it is going to be imperative in the United States, as in Canada, that we end up with a system that maximizes the market reach of cap-and-trade…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I actually believe that the western climate initiative will reach across our country from coast to coast and will provide us with the tools we need for a continent-based cap-and-trade system. I believe that if we waited for federal governments or the international community to entirely come to a conclusion, we could be waiting for a very long time, and I don't believe waiting is the way that we are going to go forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Obviously, I am, as I'm sure the Leader of the Opposition is, interested in the international community coming to a resolution that will work. It will work for the north and the south. It will work for the eastern hemisphere and the western hemisphere. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1805]
It will maintain our economic advantages. In fact, I believe it will be a springboard for economic advantages, and I think it's important for us to deal with that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In terms of the UBCM, the membership from the UBCM itself has not been confirmed as yet. The president of the UBCM, Harry Nyce, will be co-chairing the committee with the Minister of Community and Rural Development. We have two MLAs that we have appointed to that, and we are awaiting the appointments of the UBCM. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The leader rightly asks: are we concerned about the time? Yes, I am concerned about the time frame. I think it's important that we get on with this, but I also think that it's something that has been actually fairly well canvassed both at the local level and at the provincial level and publicly discussed. We have a strong provincial electoral framework that has been subject to lots of debate. Decisions have been made. Improvements can potentially be made in our act, and they can certainly be made as we move forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I don't think it's necessary to reinvent everything all the time. I think this is something that's important in terms of public confidence, and I have confidence in the committee that they will be able to deliver the proper legislative package. Hopefully, they can deal with it before their deadline, and it may be that our Legislature will be able to deal with it before the May 30 date. But there's no question; there is urgency behind this, and we are going to have to continue to pursue it. We're looking forward to the results of the deliberations of the committee. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
C. James: I'd just like to make some closing remarks and then turn the chair over to my colleague to be able to deal with intergovernmental affairs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to thank the Premier's staff and the Premier for taking the time over the last two days to go through the Premier's estimates. I have to say, though, in going through the estimates over the last couple of days, I think it's pretty clear why the public has lost trust with this government. I think it's very clear, if we take a look at the lack of openness and transparency, that we didn't see anything different over the last couple of days than we have over this last number of years and certainly through the election campaign and going into the budget. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We heard from the Premier that in fact he learned that revenue had dropped in British Columbia by $500 million to $600 million on May 7, during the election campaign, and he didn't tell the public. We learned that then, on May 14, the revenues had dropped $1.1 billion to $1.3 billion, a huge drop, and the Premier didn't bother telling the public. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We learned, as well, that the Premier in fact had had discussions with the Finance Minister in mid-May around the HST being one of the options to put on the table to deal with the fiscal challenges. He didn't tell the public. We learned that the Premier may or may not have done some analysis around the impact of the HST, and he won't tell, and he won't share that information with the public. We learned that he may or may not have done individual analysis on different sectors, but again, he may or may not have done it, and he won't tell the public and won't share that information. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We heard that although the Premier told the public they needed to tighten their belt, the Premier felt he'd learned that it was important to have a large cabinet. That was what he learned, and he didn't think it was important that he set the example of leadership by showing fiscal restraint and not having one of the largest cabinets in B.C.'s history. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Just to close, I have to say that I think the saddest thing of all is that the Premier also admitted today that he won't meet with the Representative for Children and Youth to deal with one of the critical issues facing British Columbia, which is the issue of child poverty. I think it really shows, as I said, why the public has lost faith in this government, why this government has not brought forward any kind of policy direction to assist people as we go through these difficult economic times and why people are saying that they've had enough. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. G. Campbell: I appreciate the time that the Leader of the Opposition has spent in discussing the estimates of the Premier's office and a number of other issues over the last couple of days. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I do think it's important, though, to recognize that what we've tried to do is outline the actions that were taken by government. The fundamental principles behind a strong economy is critical to the future of our province. A low-carbon economy is critical to the future of our province. You know, I have heard a number of those comments from the Leader of the Opposition in the past. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1810]
We have one of the strongest freedom-of-information and protection-of-privacy acts in the country. We have been cited by a former Auditor General as having one of the most transparent sets of books in the country. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We have been open about the challenges that were presented to us with regard to the HST and the reasons that we have taken that on as the single most important economic measure we can undertake as we vie to strengthen our province's economy, to make it more competitive, more productive, more encouraging to investment so that we have the jobs that people need, particularly in some of our core industries. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It's not good enough to say that we care about forestry but we won't do anything for them. This is something that they have defined as the single most important thing we can do in the forest industry. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The mining industry has huge opportunities, creates huge opportunities across our province, particularly in rural British Columbia. They have said it's the single most important initiative we can undertake with regard to the economy. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
When you look at the initiatives that we're undertaking to become an alternative energy powerhouse…. Again, a competitive tax regime that encourages that is not just going to be critical to our economic future, but it's very critical to our job creation future and the jobs that families will depend on across this province. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The reason it's critical that we actually have economic activity is so we can support those very critical public services that are required and that we have actually been able to deliver: top-quality health care, top-quality education, a top-quality transportation system — investing in infrastructure that meets the needs of British Columbians and communities all over our province and opening up the opportunities of the Asia-Pacific gateway. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We have been very clear about the opportunities that the Olympics represent, not just in terms of job creation, where over 240,000 jobs are anticipated to be created. In terms of investment opportunities, economic promotion, connecting and making new partnerships and actually introducing British Columbia and Canada to the world — all of those things are critically important as we go through these challenging times. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Why do we do this? We do it for our children. We do it to make sure that our children and their children have a better province that they can live in. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It is not correct to say that I will not meet with the Representative for Children and Youth. I do meet with the Representative for Children and Youth. I will meet with the Representative for Children and Youth. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It is correct to say this Legislature said that the way to depoliticize that entire exercise was to have a legislatively appointed committee that she would go and report to. That takes place. It is appropriate. It was the Hughes recommendation, and it will make a difference in the long term as we deal with the challenges that young children face in this province — high-income, low-income, mid-income. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Those children who are still in poverty — obviously, we want to eliminate that. We're going to continue to make progress, we're going to continue to think about them, and we're going to continue on the track of reducing childhood poverty, which we've seen from 2003…. As we do that, we will not just have the lowest level of childhood poverty since 1991. We will exceed that and continue to make progress in the years and the months ahead. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Finally, let me say this. We are all fortunate in this House to sit in service of the people of British Columbia. I welcome the ideas of the opposition. I welcome the debate that the opposition brings to the House and to the public square. I think it's critically important that we engage in that debate in a constructive and a positive way. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There is no doubt in my mind that every member of the opposition shares our commitment to top-quality health care. We may have differences in how we get there, but we share that commitment to top-quality health care, to providing the best possible education we can. This is a place where we can share our ideas of how we can do that. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
To meet the challenges of child poverty — let's make sure we do that. Let's do it in concert, and let's make sure we use the vehicle that we've established as a Legislature to make sure that we can actually take on these challenges and continue to lead the country in so many areas. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: We will take a two-minute recess to allow the officials to come forward for Intergovernmental Relations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The committee recessed from 6:14 p.m. to 6:16 p.m.
[L. Reid in the chair.]
G. Gentner: It's a privilege to be able to speak today and ask questions of the minister relative to Intergovernmental Relations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I have to begin by suggesting or saying how grateful I am to the new minister who welcomed me when we met during a PNWER conference in Boise, Idaho. Her cordial welcome was quite overwhelming and was much appreciated. She's been very accommodating in many of the inquiries I have made. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Intergovernmental Relations. Here you are on the 11th hour on the 11th day, so to speak, and we're going to spend a very short time. But you know, Intergovernmental Relations is the face of British Columbia. Those relationships depict how we're seen in the world, how we see ourselves and how we're seen in the nation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There are so many issues, but I'm going to begin, first of all, and talk about the relationship between Canada and that of the Canadian pension plan. I want to ask a question, because last budget it was introduced — or in the throne speech of February — and it's been discussed many times since that B.C. is looking at the ABC pension proposal, the Alberta-B.C. pension proposal. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
In light of that, of course, it was suggested that by the end of 2009, B.C. would pursue either its own voluntary plan or it would seriously find new ways and means to the existing Canadian pension plan. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to know if the ministry can give an update as to what direction the province is going relative to the CPP. Are we going to pursue it? I know the Minister of Finance and perhaps, hopefully, the minister herself, will be meeting other ministers of Canada very shortly relative to bringing CPP into the 21st century. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: Before I answer your question, I just want to introduce some people here. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I have, to my right, Lorne Brownsey, who is our deputy minister for corporate initiatives and intergovernmental relations. I have Pierrette Maranda, assistant deputy minister. Bryant Fairley is here, I believe — oh, he left. Bryant is executive director for U.S. relations and partnerships. Don Haney, executive director for economic policy and Asia-Pacific relations; Marc-Andre Ouellette, executive director and chief of protocol; and Paul Craven, the executive director of federalism and Canadian intergovernmental policy. I thank them for coming. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
To the member opposite, I appreciated getting to know you in Boise, Idaho, at the PNWER conference, and I hope we can maintain a cordial relationship as we go forward. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
To your question. The Minister of Finance is working closely with his colleagues in Ottawa and with our neighbouring province in Alberta. Our interest here is to ensure that B.C.'s interests become a priority, to hopefully engage private businesses and people in the pension system that they don't currently have access to. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1820]
G. Gentner: I'm trying to get on the record where the government is going. Does it believe in a defined pension plan such as the Canadian pension plan? It truly is somewhat different than a private sector money management, and there are costs and disadvantages associated for it. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Can the minister state on record whether or not the government is going to pursue the improvement to the Canadian pension plan before...? You know, my understanding is that the government is going to be discussing this shortly with the government of Canada. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: B.C. has been the leader in looking for a change to our pension plan. We're particularly concerned in ensuring the viability of our pension plan and access to more Canadians. But on this particular file, the lead is being taken by the Minister of Finance, and as I mentioned, he's working with his colleagues to lobby the Canadian government for these changes. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: Well, just perhaps on record, relative to the Alberta-B.C. pension plan, is the government favouring a defined benefit plan, or is the plan being presented with Alberta a defined contribution plan? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: Hon. Member, the debate will not continue in terms of canvassing details more properly placed before the Ministry of Finance. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The member for Delta North has another question. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: Thank you, hon. Chair. My understanding was, of course, that this was a relationship between Alberta…. Saskatchewan is now buying in. You'll just have to excuse my indulgence or my naivety to think that this was a relationship that was being built between provinces. My understanding was, of course, that that's what intergovernmental relations was about. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
If that's the case, hopefully we'll have a good outcome relative to the negotiations with the Ministers of Finance throughout this great country of ours. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There was a draft resolution at PNWER presented by the government, and it stated, quite briefly: [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
"Be it resolved that PNWER members will work with local governments to ensure open procurement policies are established that assure equal access to Canadian and American vendors of goods and services and the adoption of policy measures that will open trade between PNWER members.
"Be it further resolved that PNWER member jurisdictions agree to work to remove regional development and local preferences in purchasing and procurement that could impede trade and other members of PNWER.
"Further be it resolved that PNWER member jurisdictions agree to undertake concerted efforts to build regional awareness and appreciation for the mutual benefits of our open, two-way trade system."
This was presented by the hon. minister to PNWER. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My question is: how does this work with the Wood First bill whereby the province is now suggesting that it will be promoting wood first with all the construction of provincial buildings within the province? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1825]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: Just to go back to a comment the member opposite made about our building relationships. This is one of the good things that B.C. does quite well. We have built good relationships with the western provinces, with the leaders at the Council of the Federation and with our colleagues at PNWER. This province and particularly the secretariat is good at working these relationships and finding areas of common interest where we can collaborate and take a leadership role in pursuing our interests. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We've also looked at open procurement. We've talked to our colleagues in Washington, we've talked with our colleagues in Ottawa, and we've talked with our colleagues at PNWER. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
With respect to the resolution that you just read out, I think the strategies that we're embarking on with wood first are very consistent with the resolution that we put forward at PNWER. There is nothing wrong with promoting wood. In fact, we believe in our product, and we believe that wood will win out because of our quality. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: Regarding the resolution, I'm making the assumption, therefore, that if it's to have open procurement for wood — and there's also a contradiction here with wood first…. Is the minister suggesting that the wood-first policy is using American wood? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1830]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: There is no contradiction in this. It's all about choosing wood over other building products. We know that we have good-quality wood. We know that we're a low-cost producer. We lead the world in wood technologies. All we're saying is that we want to ensure that people are aware of the option of using wood and to use it creatively, because we are very proud of wood. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Wood is all about jobs, and that's what the buy-American provision, we believe, is harmful to. It's not just B.C. that is concerned about the buy-American provisions. Our U.S. counterparts, our bordering U.S. states, are also very concerned that this will cost jobs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: I see that the clock is ticking away here. I'd just like to thank, again, the minister for her information relative to the Flathead situation, an international situation. B.C. previously is on record regarding the last International Joint Commission's recommendations on Cabin Creek as stating it was satisfied with the IJC's findings. Consequently, the province had some permits that lapsed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Knowing that there was a precedent, my question, therefore, is: why does British Columbia persist towards resource development in the Flathead when there's a precedent that's been set relative to the IJC? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: With respect to the IJC, I understand that they simply recommended further study and actually didn't oppose mining in the Flathead Valley. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: I'm going to leave that one alone. I disagree with the position of the government on that one. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Nevertheless, what I will ask is the question: did the Premier, the government or the minister take the Governor of Montana's invitation to tour the North Fork Flathead River this summer? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: No. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1835]
G. Gentner: UNESCO and the world heritage committee are coming forward with recommendations relative to the protection of the Flathead Valley north of the 49th parallel. I'm interested to know what the government's position is relative to UNESCO's position. How binding is their decision or their recommendation when it comes forward this next spring? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: The recommendations are not binding. But just to remind the member opposite, the draft report will actually go to the federal government. They've taken the lead on this. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: It's an interesting retort. When I talk to Canadian officials, it seems as though B.C. took the initiative. Nevertheless. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
When we talk to Montana, they're quite upset, of course. They suggest that there has not been a comprehensive baseline assessment of the transboundary Flathead drainage before permitting mining extractions. Why hasn't there been one? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: I'm just going to go back a couple of years for the member opposite. I don't know if you recall some of the information that I gave you on Monday, but it had information on a joint action plan. That joint action plan is something that we're working on with Montana right now. We actually gave that same action plan to the UNESCO delegation that was here to visit the Flathead. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
But since 2006 B.C. and Montana have been working very closely in negotiating the…. The objective of the negotiations is to finalize the action plan that was pursuant to the 2003 B.C.-Montana — I think it was called — environmental cooperation arrangement, and that was signed by the Premier and the former governor of Montana. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What we're doing there is that we're looking at three areas, and I'm actually pleased to say that staff have come to an agreement on this. We are looking at water quality objectives, we're looking at increasing knowledge of regulatory practices in the Flathead Valley, and we're also looking at a comprehensive joint inventory of existing Flathead research and data. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Staff have completed the negotiations with Montana on these areas, and there are still discussions ongoing. So I can't tell you that this action plan is complete, but we are in continuing discussions with Montana at this time. That's the level that we're working with Montana on, because we're very concerned about the environment. We consider this a very, very special place, as do the first nations, as do the local residents and, obviously, the people from Montana. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1840]
G. Gentner: Well, it's a draft of the action plan. It's been completed by the province, and the province is undergoing negotiations with Montana. But how can you conduct negotiations if you have not given the draft plan to your friends south of the border? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: Montana does actually have the draft plan. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd like to remind the member opposite that B.C. has a world-class regulatory…. We're so stringent with respect to our environmental protection measures in this area that I can actually say — and I think our Minister of Environment has said this — that the Flathead Valley is in no danger. In fact, we're very proud of our environmental stewardship in this area, and I think it's fair to say that the Flathead Valley is in better shape than it was a decade ago. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: There was a delegation from the State Department that came and visited British Columbia. Was the minister involved in that this fall? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: The reason why I took so long to respond was because I wasn't sure if you were talking about the UNESCO site visit or the visit that they made afterwards. It's the visit they made afterwards that I think you're referring to, and no, I was not involved in that, although there were members of my secretariat that were involved in that visit. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: Was any cabinet minister involved in these discussions with Montana on September 11 this year? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: No, there were no ministers present at that meeting. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: It's come to my attention that the delegation that was here was told that…. They were of the opinion that there'd be no further exploration in the area. Yet how is it that Max Resource's gold exploration was announced ten days after they left? Can the minister explain what that does to good relations and goodwill? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1845]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: I believe the permit that you're referring to was already in the system. But I'd just like to remind the member opposite that in the last 25 years, there has been no active mining in the Flathead Valley. The quality of our environmental management system is world-class. It's rigorous. We're proud of it, and the Flathead Valley is in no immediate threat. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: Can the minister explain to us, therefore, if there's been no relative or significant mining, why there was an exploratory permit awarded to Max gold? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The Chair: I would remind the member that debate is not permitted when it canvasses the details specific to other ministries. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: I was just going to ask the member to redirect his question to the Minister of State for Mining. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: Relative to the budget and estimates and money being spent on negotiations, there was a precedent at the Trail Smelter Arbitration. Does B.C. adhere to the international law's preventive principle that "no nation may undertake activities within its borders that will cause significant injury to another nation," which is considered a basic tenet of customary international law? Does British Columbia believe that any of the proposals — namely, coalmining, gold mining, and/or coalbed methane, either singularly or cumulatively — will not significantly harm the watercourse of the Flathead running to the United States? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: Fourteen percent of B.C. is in protected areas. We have excellent regulatory practices and processes, and we're proud of our environmental standards. We probably rank favourably or better than most jurisdictions in Canada and in the U.S. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: Well, I significantly disagree with that statement. Obviously, if we were ahead of the ball game, we wouldn't have a United Nations committee coming in here and investigating some of the complaints that have been put forward by our NGOs. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1850]
But I just want to get back to the Trail Smelter Arbitration, since the minister doesn't want to answer it. Does she believe that there will be potential significant harm attributed to mining exploration of the Flathead, without proper baseline studies? Does she believe that this would be a violation, as a signatory, under the watercourse convention of 1997, which Canada is a part of? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: I'm just going to take you back to the joint action plan that we're working on with Montana. We're very proud of the work we've done there. We've negotiated, I think, on some areas that are very important: the water quality objectives. We're looking at re-establishing long-term water monitoring in the Flathead Valley. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We are increasing our shared knowledge of our regulatory practices in B.C. and Montana, and we're establishing a joint inventory of the existing Flathead environmental data and research. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'd just like to remind the member opposite that these discussions are still ongoing. We have a good relationship with Montana, and there is no active mining in the Flathead Valley. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: Well, knowing that many letters from the Governor have been sent to the Premier in the last couple of years, I don't believe that the Governor has received a reply yet from the Premier. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Nevertheless — quickly; I know time is of the essence — there was a joint cabinet meeting with Washington State in October 2009. Can the minister explain the six items, I think, that were on the agenda and whether or not Shanker's Bend was also discussed at that meeting? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: Shanker's Bend dam was not discussed. It was not an item on the agenda. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
G. Gentner: Can the minister explain what items were on the agenda when you had discussions with Washington State? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. N. Yamamoto: It was a joint cabinet meeting, and it is subject to confidentiality, as all cabinet meetings are. But the intent was to collaborate on areas of mutual interest. I can tell you that we did release to the public some frameworks that we did sign, and I'll just go through them. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[1855]
There was a framework on transportation, competitiveness and prosperity. There was a memorandum on cooperation on H1N1 and other public health threats. There was a memorandum on action on regional transportation planning and coordination; a memorandum to enhance competitiveness and prosperity in Washington and British Columbia; a workplan on cross-border issues relating to firearms, illegal drugs and organized crime; a memorandum on traffic safety collaboration; and finally, there was a release on the Columbia Basin rapid response plan on invasive species. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Vote 10: Office of the Premier, $11,535,000 — approved.
Hon. N. Yamamoto: I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Motion approved.
The committee rose at 6:56 p.m.
The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.
Committee of Supply (Section B), having reported resolution, was granted leave to sit again.
Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported resolution, was granted leave to sit again.
Hon. G. Abbott: I move the House do now adjourn. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Motion approved.
Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The House adjourned at 6:58 p.m.
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