1994 Legislative Session: 3rd Session, 35th Parliament
The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.
The printed version remains the official version.
Nos. 26 and 27
OF THE
Tuesday, April 12, 1994
Ten o'clock a.m.
Prayers by Mr. Symons.
The Speaker delivered his reserved decision as follows:
Honourable Members:
On Thursday last, the Honourable Member for Powell River-Sunshine Coast rose on a matter of privilege alleging that the motion adopted by the House authorizing the Committee of Supply, for this Session, to sit in two sections "denies the fundamental right and privilege of a Member of this Assembly to fully participate in debate and have access to ministers of government during the financial estimates debates".
In the Honourable Member's opinion, membership to Section A of the Committee of Supply is restricted, thereby denying Members "the right to enter into debate and the right to vote".
I have carefully considered the Honourable Member's arguments, and the contributions of other Members.
Any process which denies or threatens Members' rights to freely speak or participate in debate in the Chamber or a Committee of the Whole is a situation which the Chair views with concern. Before determining whether the Honourable Member's application based on an alleged breach of privilege is, on first impression, sufficiently established to set aside the regular business of the House, I should like to briefly review with Members the intent and rationale behind the use of Committees by the House.
Committees are composed of a number of Members specifically named and regularly appointed to consider, inquire into or deal with particular matters or bills. Successive Parliaments have found in them a flexible means of accomplishing a wide variety of different purposes. Committees may be given different powers to meet different circumstances. (Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice, 21st edition, page 611.)
Select Standing and Special Committees in this House are appointed, pursuant to Standing Order 68 (1), by a Special Committee of Selection of the Assembly, which reports to the House. The Committee of Supply is appointed pursuant to Standing Order 60.
It has always been the practice in the U.K. and in most Canadian jurisdictions that the membership of Committees is allocated in generally the same proportion as that of the recognized political parties in the House itself. Other parties and Independent Members obtain representation through negotiation with recognized parties.
I should like to remind Honourable Members that the establishment of Section A of the Committee of Supply and its operating mechanism and powers were accomplished under strict adherence to and in conformity with the Standing Orders and recognized practices of this House.
To accept the principle of a parliamentary committee system is to accept and recognize that inevitably, only a fraction of all the Members of the House will become members of any particular committee. Under the Ottawa practice, Members not appointed to a particular Committee are not precluded from participating in the Committee's deliberations. They "are entitled to be present at sittings of all Committees" and "may participate during the Committee's examination of witnesses". (Beauchesne's 6th edition, paragraph 766 (1)). It is significant for Members to appreciate that the Ottawa practice is at variance with the U.K. practice which is stated in Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice, 18th edition at page 636 as follows:
"A Member of the House of Commons, who was not named of a committee, may not address the committee, put questions to witnesses, or interfere in any matter whatever in the proceedings. . . ."
In any event, in both jurisdictions, matters referred to any Committee of the House do return to the House for final approbation, thereby affording all Members the opportunity to vote.
Additionally, the motion in question provides that "substitution of Members will be permitted to Section A with the consent of that Member's Whip, where applicable, or otherwise with the consent of the Members 'Involved'". In my opinion, this substitution mechanism provides ample opportunity for Members to participate to the fullest extent in committee work.
Furthermore, the unanimous consent provision respecting the referral of Bills at the Committee stage to Committee A is yet another control which the House may exercise in its consideration of legislation.
In view of the gravity of the matter raised by the Honourable Member, the Chair wishes to point out that the House is the master of its own proceedings. After debate on the proposed Motion and the adoption of amendments proposed during that debate, the House made the decision to debate Estimates in two sections of the Committee of the Whole. The substitution rules are designed in such a way to prevent any Member being denied access to any Estimate he or she chooses to debate. As with debates in the House or any Committee thereof, it is incumbent on the Member seeking to be heard to be present and to conform to the rules as interpreted by the Presiding Officer.
To a certain extent the matter raised by the Honourable Member for Powell River - Sunshine Coast anticipates an inequity that has not occurred. If the Chair, at some future time was advised that a Member had been improperly denied access to any section of a Committee of the Whole, the Chair would redress the situation forthwith.
With the indulgence of the House, the Chair would also observe that the business of Supply, and how it is handled, varies considerably from Parliament to Parliament. Some Parliaments and Legislatures place a strict time limit on the completion of Estimates debate, and if all Estimates are not completed by the date indicated, they are "deemed" to have passed. In other Parliaments, the Official Opposition selects several Ministries for detailed examination and only those specifically selected ever reach the debate stage. For example, Alberta sets aside 25 days for Estimates, with an average of 2.5 hours per day. After the 25th day, a mandatory vote is taken and the Estimates are passed. Manitoba devotes 240 hours to the business of Supply, including all Committee time necessary for interim and final Supply Bills. Ontario refers all Estimates to a Standing Committee on Estimates which has a fixed membership with a substitution rule similar to that in this House. Further, Members will note that in Ontario only 12 of 28 Ministries are selcted for debate and by a fixed date all Estimates are deemed completed.
By contrast, in this Assembly, there is neither a time restriction nor an exclusion of any Ministries in our Estimate procedure. The questioned Motion provides for the examination of a portion of the Estimates in a branch of the traditional Committee of Supply with provision for substitution. The Chair has great difficulty with the suggestion that this arrangement restricts any Members' rights so as to amount to a prima facie breach of privilege, and I so rule.
Emery Barnes, Speaker
The House proceeded to "Orders of the Day."
Order for Committee of Supply called.
Pursuant to Sessional Order, order called for Section A of Committee of Supply (estimates of the Ministry of Small Business, Tourism and Culture).
Pursuant to Sessional Order, order called for Section B of Committee of Supply (estimates of the Ministry of Attorney General).
(In Committee)
Section B of Committee of Supply reported progress.
Report to be considered at the next sitting.
Committee to sit again at the next sitting.
Section A of Committee of Supply reported progress.
Report to be considered at the next sitting.
Committee to sit again at the next sitting.
And then the House adjourned at 11.54 a.m.
Tuesday, April 12, 1994
Two o'clock p.m.
The Hon. D. Marzari (Minister of Municipal Affairs) presented to the Speaker a Message from His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, which read as follows:
David C. Lam
Lieutenant GovernorThe Lieutenant Governor transmits herewith Bill (No. 12) intituled Library Act and recommends the same to the Legislative Assembly.
Government House,
March 24, 1994.
Bill introduced and read a first time.
Second reading at the next sitting after today.
The Hon. D. Marzari (Minister of Municipal Affairs) presented to the Speaker a Message from His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, which read as follows:
David C. Lam
Lieutenant GovernorThe Lieutenant Governor transmits herewith Bill (No. 25) intituled Municipal Affairs Statutes Amendment Act, 1994 and recommends the same to the Legislative Assembly.
Government House,
March 28, 1994.
Bill introduced and read a first time.
Second reading at the next sitting after today.
On the motion of Mr. Chisholm, Bill (No. M 214) intituled An Act to Introduce a Minimum Ethanol Component for Gasoline was introduced, read a first time, and Ordered to be placed on the Orders of the Day for second reading at the next sitting after today.
The Speaker tabled the following Reports of the Auditor General to the Legislative Assembly:
1993/94: Report 1 -- Value-for-Money Audits, Ministry of Environment, Land and Parks;
1993/94: Report 2 -- Value-for-Money Audits, Ministry of Advanced Education, Training and Technology;
1993/94: Report 3 -- Report on the 1992/93 Public Accounts, Province of British Columbia, and Report to the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia on the 1991-1992 Public Accounts.
1993/94: Report 1 -- Value-for-Money Audits, Ministry of Environment, Land and Parks;
1993/94: Report 2 -- Value-for-Money Audits, Ministry of Advanced Education, Training and Technology;
1993/94: Report 3 -- Report on the 1992/93 Public Accounts, Province of British Columbia, and Report to the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia on the 1991-1992 Public Accounts.
Order called for "Oral Questions by Members."
Ms. Tyabji presented a petition with respect to devastation caused by deer in the orchards in Oyama.
By leave, Mr. Weisgerber tabled copies of letters to the Attorney General and the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Commissioner, with supporting documents.
Mr. Dosanjh presented the Report of the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills, respecting Recall and Initiative.
Resolved, That the Report be taken as Read and Received.
The Honourable D. Mazari (Minister of Municipal Affairs) tabled the Annual Report of the British Columbia Assessment Authority for the 1992 fiscal year, in accordance with section 17 of the Assessment Authority Act.
By leave, Ms. Reid tabled a copy of a document from the Greater Victoria Hospitals Foundation.
The House proceeded to "Orders of the Day."
Order for Committee of Supply called.
Pursuant to Sessional Order, order called for Section A of Committee of Supply (estimates of the Ministry of Small Business, Tourism and Culture).
Pursuant to Sessional Order, order called for Section B of Committee of Supply (estimates of the Ministry of Attorney General).
(In Committee)
Section B of Committee of Supply reported progress.
Report to be considered at the next sitting.
Committee to sit again at the next sitting.
Section A of Committee of Supply reported progress.
Report to be considered at the next sitting.
Committee to sit again at the next sitting.
The Hon. C. Gabelmann advised that the House will sit Wednesday, pursuant to Standing Order 2 (2).
And then the House adjourned at 5.53 p.m.
EMERY BARNES, Speaker
MEETINGS OF COMMITTEES
SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
The Committee will meet at 8 o'clock to 9.30 o'clock a.m. each Tuesday (until further notice), in the Douglas Fir Room (Room 226).
Business: Matters Referred to the Committee.
F. Gingell, Chair
A. Hagen, Deputy Chair
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