2003 Legislative Session: 4th Session, 37th Parliament
The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.
The printed version remains the official version.
Nos. 38 and 39
OF THE
Monday, March 31, 2003
Ten o'clock a.m.
Prayers by Mr. Bell.
Ms. MacPhail reserved her right to raise a matter of privilege.
The House proceeded to "Orders of the Day."
Order for "Private Members' Statements" called.
Motion agreed to.
A debate arose.
Motion agreed to.
A debate arose.
Motion agreed to.
And then the House adjourned at 11.59 a.m.
Monday, March 31, 2003
Two o'clock p.m.
Order called for "Members' Statements."
Order called for "Oral Questions by Members."
Ms. MacPhail raised a point of privilege alleging the Minister of Forests was in contempt of Parliament in presenting, debating and voting on Bill (No. 28).
The Hon. G. Collins made a statement and reserved his right for further response.
The Speaker took the matter under advisement and stated that consideration of the Bill should proceed.
The House proceeded to "Orders of the Day."
Order for Committee of Supply called.
Pursuant to Sessional Order, order called for Section A of Committee of Supply.
Bill (No. 28) intituled Forestry Revitalization Act was committed.
The Committee rose, reported progress and asked leave to sit again.
Bill to be considered later today.
The Hon. G. Collins made further representations relative to the earlier point of privilege.
Ms. MacPhail made representations.
The House recessed until 6.30 p.m.
Bill (No. 28) was again committed.
In consideration of section 2 of Bill (No. 28) the Committee divided as follows:
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YEAS -- 53 |
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Hogg |
Nebbeling Stephens Abbott Neufeld Coleman Chong Penner Jarvis Anderson Orr Nuraney Brenzinger Bell |
Chutter Long Johnston Bennett Belsey Hayer Christensen McMahon Hunter Les Locke Nijjar Wong |
Visser Lekstrom MacKay Cobb K. Stewart Bloy Suffredine Brice Sultan Hamilton Sahota Hawes Kerr |
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| MacPhail | |||
Ms. MacPhail moved an amendment to section 3 (1) of Bill (No. 28) which was defeated, on division.
Ms. MacPhail moved an amendment to section 3 (1) of Bill (No. 28) which was defeated on the following division:
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YEAS -- 1 |
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| MacPhail | |||
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NAYS -- 55 |
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Hogg |
de Jong Nebbeling Stephens Abbott Neufeld Coleman Chong Penner Jarvis Anderson Orr Nuraney Brenzinger R. Stewart |
Bell Chutter Long Johnston Bennett Belsey Hayer Christensen Krueger McMahon Hunter Les Locke Bhullar |
Wong Visser Lekstrom MacKay Cobb Bloy Suffredine Brice Sultan Hamilton Sahota Hawes Kerr |
The Committee rose, reported progress and asked leave to sit again.
Bill to be considered later today.
(In Committee -- Section A)
15. Resolved, That a sum not exceeding $1,451,472,000 be granted to Her Majesty to defray the expenses of Ministry of Children and Family Development, Ministry Operations.
Section A of Committee of Supply reported the Resolution and completion of the estimates of the Ministry of Children and Family Development.
Report to be considered at the next sitting.
Committee to sit again at the next sitting.
The Hon. M. de Jong moved that the House at its rising stand recessed for 15 minutes and continue to sit thereafter until adjournment.
A debate arose.
The House divided.
Motion agreed to on the following division:
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YEAS -- 59 |
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Hogg |
Plant de Jong Nebbeling Stephens Abbott Neufeld Coleman Chong Penner Jarvis Anderson Orr Nuraney Brenzinger R. Stewart |
Bell Long Mayencourt Johnston Bennett Belsey Hayer Christensen Krueger McMahon Hunter Les Locke Nijjar Bhullar |
Wong Visser Lekstrom MacKay Cobb K. Stewart Bloy Suffredine Brice Sultan Hamilton Sahota Hawes Kerr |
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| MacPhail | |||
The House recessed until 9.32 p.m.
The Speaker delivered his reserved decision as follows:
Honourable Members:
Earlier today the Leader of the Opposition sought to raise a matter of Privilege in alleging that the Minister of Forests "has, by sponsoring, defending in debate and voting in favour of Bill 28, sought to derive a financial benefit", and was thereby in contempt of the House. The Member has followed all the rules applicable to raising a matter of privilege.
Bill 28, the Forestry Revitalization Act, enacts, as a matter of state policy, a fundamental change in forestry tenures and provides for a compensation fund which could have the effect of a financial penalty to the Minister of Forests under section 5 (1) of the Balanced Budget and Ministerial Accountability Act. Section 11 of Bill 28 creates an exemption from the penalty for the 2002-2003 fiscal year.
In her argument she quoted section 2 of the Members' Conflict of Interest Act which reads in part as follows:
"2 (1) For the purposes of this Act, a member has a conflict of interest when the member exercises an official power or performs an official duty or function in the execution of his or her office and at the same time knows that in the performance of the duty or function or in the exercise of the power there is the opportunity to further his or her private interest."
Section 2, however, must be read in light of the definition of "Private Interest" in section 1 of that Act, which clearly exempts "the remuneration and benefits of a member of the Legislative Assembly" from the definition.
While Standing Order 18 was not specifically mentioned, it is modelled on the British practice to which the Member alluded. Standing Order 18 reads as follows:
Member having pecuniary interest not to vote.
18. No Member is entitled to vote upon any question in which he or she has a direct pecuniary interest, and the vote of any Member so interested shall be disallowed.
Numerous Speakers' decisions have dealt with the issues raised in Standing Order 18 as enumerated in MacMinn's Parliamentary Practice in British Columbia, 3rd ed., beginning at p. 27. A review of those decisions and the 20th ed. of Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice at p. 412 indicates that matters of state policy or involving salaries and benefits of Members are exempt from the rule. Examples given include Members' salaries, pensions and a vote against a specific reduction in a Minister's salary.
On the question of the application of the rule to advocacy the following passage from Parliament, Functions and Procedures by J. A. G. Griffith and Michael Ryle makes it clear that the rule does not apply to public bills, being applicable only to Private Bills.
"On July 17, 1811 Mr. Speaker Abbot ruled: "No member who has a direct pecuniary interest in a question shall be allowed to vote upon it" and this was understood then to be an ancient practice. But he distinguished an interest "in common with the rest of His Majesty's subjects or on a matter of state policy"; the vote of a member would not be disallowed solely because of such interests and this is the governing doctrine today. In practice members may vote on all business before the House except private legislation where they have a direct pecuniary interest. So in 1983, the Speaker ruled that members who were solicitors might vote on the Home Buyers Bill (intended to remove their exclusive rights on conveyancing) as the bill was on a matter of public policy. But on a private bill to regulate Lloyds, members of that corporation were advised not to vote."
The Member also quoted from the Report of the Select Standing Committee on the Conduct of a Member, House of Commons, 18th December 1940. That report, however, dealt with an allegation that a Member received a benefit from an outside party in exchange for advocating a course of action through political speeches and pressure on Ministers and officials. That is clearly not the case at hand.
In summary, the authorities have on numerous occasions stated that where a matter of general or public policy is at the heart of a measure, personal and pecuniary interest is overridden.
The Minister, in presenting, debating and voting on Bill 28 is not in breach of any rule of this House or the precedents to which I have referred. Accordingly I find that no prima facie case of breach of privilege or contempt has been made out.
CLAUDE RICHMOND, Speaker
Bill (No. 28) was again committed.
Section 11 of Bill (No. 28) passed, on division.
Bill (No. 28) was reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed.
The Speaker declared a short recess.
Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor having entered the House, and being seated in the Chair --
E. George MacMinn, Q.C., Clerk of the House, read the title to the following Act:
Bill (No. 28) Forestry Revitalization Act.
Her Honour was pleased in Her Majesty's name to give assent to the said Act.
The said assent was announced by E. George MacMinn, Q.C., Clerk of the House, in the following words:
"In Her Majesty's name, Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor doth assent to this Act."
Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor was then pleased to retire.
And then the House adjourned at 11.26 p.m.
CLAUDE RICHMOND, Speaker
NOTICE OF MOTIONS
Tuesday, April 1
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